VIC Vexatious and litigious ex

[Dpj]

You're not gonna like much of what is below

Mate. I loved it. Thanks

But here's the real kicker.... In 2020, after having spent years & tens of thousands on lawyers, she could walk into a local court (or just pick up a phone or log in to magistrates court at home), make up any amount of lies she wishes for a FVO application, include the kids names as protected persons, & you will be served the next day with an 'interim' FVO that will set aside your family court orders & remove your kids from your life .... She sounds like the sort that would be up for

Yep. That sounds like a high possibility. Thank for your post

Worry if they are acting like that when she's not around

She says 'dont we hate daddy' and then texts me 'he tell me all the time he hates you' etc. But he only shows love (besides the standar 3yo tantrums) when im around them. Hevtells me randomly 'i love you daddy'. My other boy cant talk as he is still too young.

* Oh and just to clarify - I was in the same boat as you in many ways. Prior to separation, I was actually the primary carer. And I was actually the victim of DV from her, if anything. It was pretty low level but she hit me on a number of occasions, but I had no proof of it and she got in with a DV order first

This scared the sh!t out of me. I too was primary care giver before separation and our youngest was just 11 months when we split. Thank god i had proof of the DV (photos, her admission, hospital report, xray) as without those 2 incidents i would have been f..ked and labelled the abuser. We had a nanny who also came to the party and sent me a letter that'd make you cry. She said 'i helped her escape the house and my wife's abuse'. She asked me to stay back one day and said 'your wife's abusing me' and i just thought, here we go again. My unsung house painter, got me thinking. He was hired by my wife yet came up to me one day and said out of the blue 'mate, you need to leave your wife'. I had said 20 words to him beforehand. He was a few years younger than me and told me his story. The painter, nanny and two violence incidents (one i got xrays for broken bones - no fracture tho) all happened in the space of a few months. By then i knew i was leaving her and so started gathering evidence in prep for wgat is happening now. I also wrote a diary which is pretty f****d up reading. She was a nutter from about a year into our 5 year relationship and im sure she has some sort of personality disorder as she can never say sorry, admit fault or anything. She threatened divorce weekly, left me in 2018 for a month after i had just secured a new rental for us to live in (in the country), took all the furniture and my son and i slept on a matress on the floor of my old place til i worked stuff out (he was in daycare in the city so stayed with me). She took the FVIIO out abd stipped the house off all posessions. I asked for my grandfathers war memorabilia to be returned abd she said she didnt have ot only to text me a photo of mybyoungest dancing and low and behold it was there in the background. Even when she didnt pick up the kids last night she projected that onto me and suddenly i was the abuser and manipulator snd f****d it up. It was clearly in the court order but she still managed in her crazy head to think it was all my fault and i had stuffed up. I do worry about my kids emotional upbringimg in her care but may be me out of the picture will make her less abusive. If she starts laying into the kids in a few years (she will surely find a new target) then may be ill act then. Im honestly living Gorman & Gorman [2016] but my kids are so young may be i just wait and then if i see her abusing the kids ill take action then. At least my kids will be able to talk and have an opinion then (plus an ICL). My whole aim of the psych request in the order, which was granted, was so she could diagnosed and forced into getting help. I genuinely want her to be the best mother she can be. But i worry the psych assessment may not pick up anything and thus becomes a fruitless excercise. Its a $10k cost and im still grappling whether i do it. Based on above vomments, may be i can the idea and try it later if s**t gets bad.

Anyhoo, i probably sound like a defeated soul but i am very resilient and emotionally aware. The court case last week just threw me off and ive been a bit stressed this week. But im in a way better position than so many others so just need to be thankful.

 

[Atticus]

i worry the psych assessment may not pick up anything and thus becomes a fruitless excercise. Its a $10k cost and im still grappling whether i do it.

Even if the psych report flags an issue, it may not be given much weight... May just finish up being a recommendation (order if it's bad) for her to do this or attend that... Probably better things you can spend $10K on IMO...

Glad the folk here with real life experiences has given you a new perspective on coping with a crazy, & a legal system that not only enables abuse (of the system) but supports it

 

[Dpj]

Probably better things you can spend $10K on IMO...

Agreed. Id rather have a divorce moment and go buy a classic car or something with that cash.

I put the olive branch out to her tonight and she grabbed it with one hand at least. I honestly cant tell you how good this forum advice was. I hardly know anyone divorced let along with a 'crazy'. And so badly needed a slap into reality as my lawyers werent blunt enough. Sammy and the rest of you should all be proud you made a real difference.

For 4 hours we emailed a few times and now are pretty much agreed on a custody plan to shared care (50:50) for all 3 kids by Dec 2025. Of course it ended in the same argument of youre crazy, no you are, no you are. But for 3.5 hours we didnt hate each other. But we are super close to a final agreement and hopefully can get a court order to lock than in. The last parts are more semantics (ie, she wants me to lose days if i re partner and have more kids. I dont agree but will if its a real sticky point for her. Reality is its prob only a small chance and if it happens ill tackle the issue then). This will be a huge weight of both our shoulders and although i cried last monday after court for the first time in years, its a good outcome when i hear other stories. I needed this forum's answers to realise my dream of having her deemed crazy, unfit and for me to become primary care giver would be a losing battle, even if it would be the best long term for the kids, and to just ditch that idea. I mean, i had in my affidavit that i wanted the boys 10 nights for the first 3 months of the new kids birth as i figured that would be best for all. and my lawyer never said he chocked on his weetbix reading that. But i sort of wish he had. It was only when the barrister got involved the day before court that i realised it was a pipe dream. And my lawyer is a partner at a top Family law firm. Anyhoo. An expensive few weeks but you live and learn. I just wish id played it better as id have 3 dream classics in my garage now instead of nothing.

 

[sammy01]

refuse to accept orders about if you re-partner. NOT unless she is prepared to live by the same rules.
If she insists go for a sunset clause - If you re-parter and cohabitate within 7 years BUT after that the order expires. Let's face it, it is gonna be at least 7 years before you're in a fit headspace to even think about re-partnering.
Also, you're never gonna get 50/50 in court.
AND WORSE - courts don't like separating kids. So this new born (sorry to be blunt) is a problem. No court is gonna agree to 5 a fortnight of a new born. That could impact on how a judge would proceed with the other kids. Grab the 5 and if you can negotiate it up to 6 or even 50/50 by 2025 then grab it. Mate my youngest fella was 6 months old when I got kicked out. Didn't see the kids for nearly 6 months. Then only 1 hour a week with the litte guy. I (mistakenly) thought we would not bond because I wasn't there much in those early days. I (stupidly) gave up on him. He is 8 now. I have a small hobby farm and when the older two are on their mobile phones and X boxes the little guy is following me around and being my apprentice as I go about fixing up stuff on the farm. Like you I wanted 50/50. I felt I had the credentials, good dad, school teacher etc etc... But solicitor told me I wont get 50/50 in court and with a young kid I will have done well to negotiate 5 a fortnight.

Some strategies moving forward - You want to be picking up kids from school NOT FROM HER. WHY? Take yourself to Maccas and sit yourself so you have a good view of the car park. 10am Saturday morning is a good time. Play a game called 'spot dad'. Dad will be standing in a pile of ciggie butts. He will be looking at his watch, his phone, the entry and he will be pacing... He is waiting for his kids... I once waited 6 hours... Thank christ Maccas have wi-fi these days... YOU do not want to be that guy. But in all seriousness... If you pick up from school it makes it harder for the nutter to withold the kids.

Story time - to prepare you for madness. I got final orders. 5 nights. SWEET. Happy ending... NO. See one day the nutter read the orders. She was well pissed because her family tax benefit had gone down as a result of the 5. She read the part of the orders that stated "or by agreement". She decided that she no longer 'agreed' and as such I would not be seeing the kids anymore. The first I heard of this is when Child Support called to get me to confirm that my care % had dropped from 38% to 0%...

So old mate, get final orders, but run stuff past the nice folk here. Let me give you another example. Half school holidays. Nice EASY. How could you confuse that? Well every holidays the ex would move the goal posts. If it was my normal weekend when the holidays started, she would say I had to miss that weekend because it was holidays. Her favorite was to tell me that student free days are part of the holidays when I had the kids. I'm a teacher. So that would screw me over. BUT if the student free days fell on her time, then it wasn't holiday time. Solution? use the advertised dates from the Victorian dept of education website.

Sort version - You need your orders to be very clear. NO WRIGGLE ROOM.

Now some advice about the parental alienation... "Find Fred". It is a game I invented. BTW I'm not the nice guy you think I am. I am manipulative too... So Find Fred was a game. The way it works is before picking the kids up, I hide a fredo frog in the car for each of the kids. The kids know they're not allowed to look for the frog. Not yet. They have to get in the car, do the best to get their seat belts on... Only once we've gone 1km up the road and I pull over can they start looking for Fred... My kids are older now, they still laugh at that game... AND they still don't know that it was a strategy to get them in the car and as far away from the ex as fast as possible. See my ex used to put on these performances, she was almost in tears (good acting). Telling the kids she'll miss them? That they need to think about her before bed, they didn't have to eat dinner because daddy can't cook. blah blah. "Find Fred" and the pretty woman method (mentioned in my first post) meant change overs went from being 15 minutes of torture to being about as fast as a formula 1 pitstop. Now the advice goes beyond "Finding Fred". Nutters are intuitively manipulative. I think it has something to do with the political system from the planet they inhabited before they came here. Anyways, we are not intuitively manipulative. That is why we hate haggling when we buy a used car. You need to start being strategic / manipulative. AND by doing so, you're taking away some of her power (because this isn't an even playing field) and by being able to control some of the s**t storm that you're in you will feel better and more in control of this disaster.

Final thing. Good advice my dad gave me when I was tearing my hair out at the fact the kids were being sold lies. "Wrap them kids up in a blanket made out of love". My kids heard me tell them that I love their mum. We have decided it is best if we don't live together because we argued lots. BUT I still love her and I hope she is happy (but I kinda meant the 'hope she is happy' in a sarcastic kinda way).
Rant over - I gotta go make the school lunches, did I mention the kids live with me about 80% of the time these days...

 

[Dpj]

No court is gonna agree to 5 a fortnight of a new born. That could impact on how a judge would proceed with the other kids. Grab the 5 and if you can negotiate it up to 6 or even 50/50 by 2025 then grab it.

So old mate, get final orders, but run stuff past the nice folk here

We have basically come to an agreement. I said 5 days when the young on is three (to match the boys) and she said no 5 days from 2. Although she does alienate and is very tardy with drop offs i do feel she wants me in their lives and she is a business mind woman (who doesnt earn much but acts like she is CEO of an asx listed top 100) and not a natural mother. We are super close to an agreement. Although my head space isnt date worthy i do move on from f****d up stuff and have been through a lot in life before this storm. Ill try and convince her i wont have more kids so we'll see about that one.

I suspect we'll agree this week. So besides the emotional stuff and games like find freddy which is awesome advice and things i want to keep learning about, my aim now is to get the kids stuff stamped off. I like you blunt humour (ie, ciggy dad).

So are you suggesting

1 - have school holidays in the Order reference the officaial school holiday period as set by the Victorian governnent.
2 - drop offs as much as possible to be from school/daycare/etc

I didn't quite get the 'final orders part'. I assume if we get lawyers to draft our parenting plan and get it stamped by the court that would constitute a final order. Ill can ask my lawyer in a 6 minute convo but would love to save the $75.

From there i just play compliant johnny. Be nice as you said and dont get sucked in. She is very black and white. So if im nice when she is a b***h she becomes much less of a b***h. When i jab back once after defending 500 blows i get another 500 blows twice as hard.

Can i ask how the kids are now with you 80% of the time? The few examples of your stories of her pettiness (like the nits) is exactly the s**t i get daily. May be our ex's come from that same planet. She was telling me the other day how i should be cleaning my house - i said 'go away' but now will say 'thanks, thats some good tips'. I have inner strength generally and i see you do to. I think ill need it.

 

[Atticus]

Sort version - You need your orders to be very clear. NO WRIGGLE ROOM.

I agree

Have a read through this from the Attorney Generals Dept regarding putting together parenting orders.... It covers pretty much everything you should consider >>> https://www.ag.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Parenting-orders-what-you-need-to-know.pdf

didn't quite get the 'final orders part'. I assume if we get lawyers to draft our parenting plan and get it stamped by the court that would constitute a final order.

Pretty much ..... Put together all the points you want included, take it to a solicitor. They will submit an application for final orders by consent for the court to review. It gets stamped & it's done

 

[Dpj]

They will submit an application for final orders by consent for the court to review. It gets stamped & it's done

Thanks Atticus, much appreciated. As the court reviews it, could they reject it? And if so, typically under what circumstances.

 

[Atticus]

As the court reviews it, could they reject it? And if so, typically under what circumstances.

If there is anything in there that is of concern they will notify you/lawyer what it is so you can amend.... Not likley in parenting orders, more likely when consent orders for property settlement are submitted & the proposals are unjust in the circumstances

 

[GlassHalfFull]

Now some advice about the parental alienation... "Find Fred". It is a game I invented. BTW I'm not the nice guy you think I am. I am manipulative too... So Find Fred was a game. The way it works is before picking the kids up, I hide a fredo frog in the car for each of the kids. The kids know they're not allowed to look for the frog. Not yet. They have to get in the car, do the best to get their seat belts on... Only once we've gone 1km up the road and I pull over can they start looking for Fred... My kids are older now, they still laugh at that game... AND they still don't know that it was a strategy to get them in the car and as far away from the ex as fast as possible. See my ex used to put on these performances, she was almost in tears (good acting). Telling the kids she'll miss them? That they need to think about her before bed, they didn't have to eat dinner because daddy can't cook. blah blah. "Find Fred" and the pretty woman method (mentioned in my first post) meant change overs went from being 15 minutes of torture to being about as fast as a formula 1 pitstop. Now the advice goes beyond "Finding Fred". Nutters are intuitively manipulative. I think it has something to do with the political system from the planet they inhabited before they came here. Anyways, we are not intuitively manipulative. That is why we hate haggling when we buy a used car. You need to start being strategic / manipulative. AND by doing so, you're taking away some of her power (because this isn't an even playing field) and by being able to control some of the s**t storm that you're in you will feel better and more in control of this disaster.

😂😂😂 I feel like I got to know the real Sammy a bit more in this post! Love it. I might have to try that one. Although my kids have had it drummed into them that they're not allowed to keep ANY secrets from mum so I'm sure she'd hear about it. Frustrating that she even put that on the kids in the first place, but it's not something I can necessarily try to talk the kids out of it either. Not that I have that much trouble getting them in the car in the first place, in fact it's my ex that hardly gives me a chance to say goodbye and is practically dragging the kids away by the arms within a few seconds of arrival at the handover. She clearly feels very uncomfortable being in my presence and I'm sure it's at least partially because of how badly she screwed me over (and possibly some insane belief that I'm a actually danger to her). But good advice, you have to be a bit manipulative to try to get a good outcome from your situation. Ideally not manipulative with the kids, but hey that one sounds fairly harmless in retrospect!

 

[sammy01]

1 - have school holidays in the Order reference the official school holiday period as set by the Victorian government.
Yep... But I'm gonna contradict myself in a bit.
2 - drop offs as much as possible to be from school/daycare/etc - HELL yes. Not only does it make it harder for her to withhold it also has the benefit of not having to see HER.

Interim orders and final orders are reference to court. Courts make interim orders to start and final orders to finish of the game. But looks like you guys are gonna sort all this through consent - so you'll have 'consent orders'.

So the contradiction - Living with a nutter Advice from a survivor....
Swim in tranquility. Or to put it another way - If pain persists learn to enjoy it because nobody cares... See back in the day when I had 5 a fortnight, the arguments were not about interpreting the orders. The arguments were about her her asserting power and control and me not wanting to be walked over. I started to win when I stopped caring. The opposite of love isn't hate. It is ambivalence... And when you reach a zen point where you don't need 3 ciggies to calm your nerves because she has fcuked you over YET again, your blood pressure comes back down and you can quit smoking, start sleeping better and start living a life where you're not constantly caught up in nutter world.

Kids with me 80%... Awesome. She fcuked off with some bloke up the coast and told me I'll be begging for her to take the kids off my hands in 6 months. That was 4 yrs ago and she has left that fella and is onto some other victim. So the kids visit her for most of the holidays and a few times during the year and miss a few days off school. The kids don't like disorder. They don't like her whinging about me. They like having breakfast and being sent to their room for mucking up, not smacked by an irrational idiot.

And the good news. Eldest daughter is 14. She has a mobile phone. She gets it. She has learned. Poor kid. When she turned 12 mum told her she doesn't have to live with dad anymore... See in the mother's group version of family law a 12 yr old can make up their own mind... The kid doesn't need that grief. So I sometimes have to take one for the team. Daughter knows she can tell mummy that dad said he will take her to court if she refuses to come back to dad... Daughter knows it is a lie but it is easier for the kid than having to say to mum that she doesn't want to live with her.

And because 14 yr old has a mobile she calls me when they leave. Mum lives north coast of NSW I live on the south coast. We meet in Sydney... But daugther calls me to tell me when they leave and if they are planning any stops. So these days I find myself only sitting at Maccas for somewhere between 1-2 hours. Not 6...

Please don't ask me if mum pays child support... But I'm good with that too. I'm raising these kids and if she had to pay me a cent she would feel entitled to tell me how to spend it.