QLD Received QP9 - Definition of "Indecent Treatment"?

[AnthonyC]

The actual charge against me when my matter went to Trial was completely different to what was stated on my QP9 (I only ever had a copy of the QP9 Brief).

I was never officially notified by anyone, not even my Lawyer, that a change had taken place - although the Lawyer did tell me quite late in the piece what the actual charge was, which seemed completely incredulous to me at the time.

My QP9 Brief stated in black and white that I had 'attempted to view the victim (then aged 15) in the shower and the next morning had come into her room and rubbed her back'. I spent almost 2 years 5 months under the mistaken assumption that this is what I was charged for.

However the charge ended up being that 'I was getting on my feet and my hand slipped onto her bottom'. Only a brief touching - outside clothing (shorts) was alleged. The prosecutor in his opening statement referred to the alleged incident thus: "And she will then tell you that his hand then slipped down over her bottom as he left."

Now that seems to me to be a bit of a fishing expedition to me! Can they really do this? How is anyone expected to mount a successful defence under such conditions as these? Do people routinely get prosecuted over seemingly 'minor' matters such as these? (in saying this I am not in any way trying to negate the trauma of genuine victims of sexual abuse)

If anyone has experience in these matters and any comments whatsoever to make, big or small, I would greatly appreciate your input. My understanding of how the DPP, District Courts and QLD Police Service operate is unfortunately extremely limited.

 

[Leally36]

I read these cases with interest. My husband and I are currently living a nightmare related to allegations of indecent behaviour with a minor which occurred before we met in 2010.

In April this year, he took a call early one Sunday morning. It was from a 19-year-old who was crying on the phone asking him why he touched her breast. Unfortunately, as we were both woken from our sleep, he was focused on the phone call. I heard him say he was sorry she felt that way, he apologised, but he never denied on the phone.
After the phone call, he discussed further with me and outlined the phone call more, recalling that the girl was about 13 when he saw her when she visited with her mother and sister. It was the only time they came to the house.

He stated he never had a sexual relationship with the mother. He recalls the kids playing in the pool, he recalled the girls were bold, he recalled that the mother has been with numerous men. He recalled that both adults consumed alcohol and cooked a barbeque. He recalled that when he woke the following morning that the family had left. He rang numerous times.

In June, he was arrested and charged with indecent dealing with a minor. Although the girl's and mother's statements are inconsistent and amended, he has convicted himself as the phone call was recorded at a police station.

We received a copy of the phone call and listened and I was concerned. However, the concerned intensified once we received initial legal advice, recommending to Plea Guilty and accept a prison sentence of up to 16 years. My husband is 61 years old. Due to poor service, we sought another lawyer who also recommended Plea Guilty based on the phone call and stated this charge will result in a prison sentence unless there are extenuating circumstances.

Prior to April, my husband has been receiving mental health intervention re PTSD and depression related to an event in November 2013 and is on antidepressants. His psychiatrist and psychologist recommended not to plead guilty.

It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

GUILTY will see something happening within the next few months, legal costs of approx $20,000, potential time in prison, a criminal history recorded, no jury and naturally emotional loss.

NOT GUILTY will be drawn out for several years, goodness knows how much legal costs, a jury, the "victim", significant emotional trauma, the hearing in an outer regional town where everybody knows everyone, therefore, a cost to his reputation.

He stateD he never touched the girl's clothed breast, however, the phone call, where his head was clouded with sleep, depression and psychotropic medication accuses him of guilt.

Any help advice would be appreciated.

 

[AnthonyC]

Unbelievable! That could be a case of mistaken identity, or anything. I've been told that is what is known as a "Pretext Phone call", although I never received one.

No one should ever plead guilty to something that to their full knowledge they are not guilty of. This would be perverting the Legal System just as much as someone making a false accusation. In essence, it is an act of submission and agreement to the fact we have a flawed Legal System, and that some lives will be destroyed as collateral damage. This is something we as a society should refuse to accept. It is not a kindness to all the genuine victims out there, nor does it do anything towards giving them 'justice'.

The enormous personal cost to the accused Individual cannot be understated. Their career, reputation, standing in the community - all are at stake. The fact is, unfortunately, that in some cases the person accusing them either wilfully lies or exaggerates matters for their own reasons, or they are simply that confused they have a very jumbled up, hazy recollection of matters - combined with a strong feeling that "someone's gotta pay" for something they have convinced themselves has 'happened' to them. YES, we should protect the vulnerable. Absolutely, 100%. But we should not be making a certain class of people untouchable while putting other people through hell on "the off chance they might have done something". It is SO easy to accuse someone, and so very, very difficult to prove something never happened.

It is an adversarial system. Every little thing you say will be twisted around. Even when you 'spaced out' for a moment after 2 or 3 hours of rigorous questioning. They try to wear you down or catch you off guard (which is obviously what happened with your husband). Then the Prosecution will deliberately try to put "spin" on the situation - for example, in my case during the closing address, the Prosecutor deliberately paused and then uttered a completely different word to what is in the Transcript he was reading from. The Judge re-read it the next morning, using the correct wording, but the damage was done.

In my mind, it is extremely unethical for them to try to "inject" further prejudice into a situation to try to push it over the line. Everyone wants to win, but who is on the side of right if the Police and Crown Prosecutor do underhanded things on purpose? It is an admission that they know their case is not strong enough. And furthermore, it shows that they are setting themselves up as Judge and Jury. Why even have a Court Process if these individuals have already decided a person is Guilty and that they need to 'make sure' he gets put away for it? At the end of the day, they have only really 'listened' to one person's story - which may be a long, long way from the truth.

I really do feel for you and your husband. You have a fight ahead of you. If he doesn't fight this with all he's got, it will run over him like a freight train and destroy him utterly.

 

[Leally36]

Thank you AnthonyC for your passionate response. Unfortunately $20000 is our limit and the emotional distress is unwelcome. It's confusing when two legal representatives recommend "plead guilty" ...."it will be cheaper" .... "Less drawn out" ... And ultimately less traumatic with "if you try and fight it and found guilty you will serve longer in prison". Health professionals recommend "plead not guilty". Unfortunately, the recorded phonecall which was done in the police station, provides the evidence for guilt because he didn't deny it in the conversation.... Only apologised that she feels that way and can't be cuddled by her father.

It's so disturbing when the media exhibits other major criminal cases and you see they get off "free".

The current legislation cites "you must serve a prison sentence unless there is extenuating circumstances".

He has taken the "legal" advice.

 

[AnthonyC]

This is what they do! They do everything they can to make you feel guilty even over innocent things you've done, even things which are not wrong at all - for example, in a normal "Family" setting. For my own part, I was left to look after 2 children and get them off to School 4 days a week. And they actually said to me "why were you talking to her from outside the door while she was getting ready for School?".

They also make a huge deal about Children lying on the bed while the Parents are there. What Family doesn't have all the kids pile in with them on a Saturday morning? Families are spontaneous and don't run on the thought of having a Court judge and pry into every little thing we do!

The underhanded way they conduct these Interviews - and indeed, the "Pretext" Phone Call is designed with one purpose in mind - to make you "look guilty" and supposedly "incriminate" yourself. There doesn't even have to be any kind of admission to convict, just anything that when combined with what the "victim" is saying, makes you look bad.

I can't speak for your Husband as I don't know exactly what was said in that Phone Call - but I strongly suspect that they have also done a number on him. I know exactly what it's like. In a way I felt somehow like I was "at fault" for 2 years and 5 months until it went to Trial and only then did I realise I had not even done what they were claiming I did, and what a ridiculous beat-up the whole thing had been!

He probably even feels guilty for how he handled that unexpected Phone Call. It is almost like you take on an aura of guilt even in your own mind because of what you said under duress, and how it could (and very likely will be) misinterpreted. And you beat yourself up endlessly because of all the things you should have / could have said. And on top of that you feel like you can't win. It is just too big to take on.

Yes, for all intents and purposes there is mandatory Jail terms in the current legal environment. But that is just the beginning! I cannot understand how someone could willingly accept being listed on a "Sex Offenders Register" while knowing they have not done anything to warrant it. That in itself is the most soul-crushing thing imaginable. For an innocent person to have to undergo that is obscene, indecent, and wrong in every way. And then there is the future discrimination one faces with Employment and other matters due to having a Criminal Record or it becoming known in the Community. Every Employer for every Job you apply for that does a Police Check, which is most of them, sees that charge listed against your record.

If I could do it all over again, I would not "roll over". I would fight it with every power at my disposal. Of course, what your husband decides to do is his own choice. But it is extremely difficult or even impossible to go back on it if one finds oneself regretting it later. He is lucky that he has someone supportive. I sincerely hope that he appreciates and deserves it

 

[Jodie1975]

Hi, unusual question I know but I have searched and I am unable to find any precedent for this.

On one ocassion while having a conversation with my Stepdaughter (age 15 1/2) I rubbed the small of her back (she was lying face down).

On my QP9 (brief) it states that I rubbed her back. This apparently qualifies as "Indecent Treatment of a Child". No other touching was involved or implied.

As luck would have it, the girl ended up desperately wanting to live with her Father and fed me to the sharks. Honestly, I had no idea what I was in for with the Police. I decided to be absolutely honest with them and give them the whole truth. There was very little to tell, and I was absolutely stunned when they arrested and charged me!

I don't wish to minimize the wrong or make light of things IF a crime has been committed, but to be honest I really don't understand any of it. Why is this going to the QLD District Court? It would seem that any conviction would have to be based entirely on innuendo as this is something an everyday Parent might do in the normal course of Family Life? (No doubt Step Parents are viewed completely differently, we are there just to shut up and pay the bills and interact with the children as little as possible).

After nearly 2 years of this nightmare I have woken up and gone "what the hell?". Can I seriously go through this whole Court Process and massive Legal Costs for absent-mindedly rubbing a Child's back? A Child that I was the Parent of for a number of years, and who was in real terms my dependent in the absence of any support from her natural Father?

What recourse do I have here?

I would welcome any and all opinions on this.

 

[Jodie1975]

Thank you AnthonyC for your passionate response. Unfortunately $20000 is our limit and the emotional distress is unwelcome. It's confusing when two legal representatives recommend "plead guilty" ...."it will be cheaper" .... "Less drawn out" ... And ultimately less traumatic with "if you try and fight it and found guilty you will serve longer in prison". Health professionals recommend "plead not guilty". Unfortunately, the recorded phonecall which was done in the police station, provides the evidence for guilt because he didn't deny it in the conversation.... Only apologised that she feels that way and can't be cuddled by her father.

It's so disturbing when the media exhibits other major criminal cases and you see they get off "free".

The current legislation cites "you must serve a prison sentence unless there is extenuating circumstances".

He has taken the "legal" advice.

I know this post is old so I hope all is well for you and your husband.

We are living the same nightmare..my husband put his arm around my daughter/ his step-daughters shoulder and 24 hours later we had the police at our door arresting him for indecent treatment. Sadly she accuses people of sexual misconduct..firstly her biological father, then her cousin and now my husband without a thought for the repercussions.

I chose to stay with him because I know he didn’t do what she’s claimed. It’s isolated me from many family and friends. I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy.

 

[Deleted member 12925]

Hi

I would be happy to review the material and provide to you some initial free advice. We can discuss costs later.

 

[Jodie1975]

Hi

I would be happy to review the material and provide to you some initial free advice. We can discuss costs later.

Thanks Glenn...this has already gone to trial and the jury were hung. We have to go back in November.

In the pre-record my daughter admits to being a chronic liar and agrees that any touch if there was any was purely accidental anyway. Under Section 210 1(d) doesn’t the action have to be willingly?..

In cross examination she says he didn’t touch her then changes her mind.

I’m glad that the system is there to protect our kids against real offenders but it’s sad when the normal actions of a parent are so badly misconstrued

 

[AnthonyC]

In cross examination she says he didn’t touch her then changes her mind.

I’m glad that the system is there to protect our kids against real offenders but it’s sad when the normal actions of a parent are so badly misconstrued

It is an extremely adversarial system. It seems the Prosecution will blindly ignore facts like this that should be as plain as day, while making every innocent little thing on the part of the Accused out to be something incredibly sinister. Nobody can hold up against it unless you have a DAMN good Lawyer, and even then it will be touch and go.

When the entire thing is set up to smear the person in every way possible, what hope does an average person have against that?

I was accused of being "very, very violent". When asked "What's the most violent thing he ever did?", the only answer she could come up with was "He threw a banana". I did indeed throw a banana at 3 kids on a Trampoline (it didn't hit anyone). Obviously it was a joke. I never expected it to come up in a Court one day.

Obviously that particular accusation didn't fly, but there were a lot of other things where I was made out to be the worst over, which were the most piddling things imaginable - but the Prosecution did their level best to paint the worst possible picture of me that they could for the Jury (this despite the fact that the duty of a Prosecutor includes never attempting to influence the outcome of a case by introducing prejudice or emotion).

Right from the outset with the blatant lies in the QP9... every single step of the way someone was more than ready to give Justice a bit of a push or a helping hand.

They are literally scum, and there is no limit to how low they will go. There is just no possible way an ordinary person can be certain of a good outcome. I sincerely hope your Husband doesn't become the next victim.

Several years after the fact I am still fighting for Justice, and everywhere I go to seek Justice I am treated like a Criminal, despite the fact that I have proved myself many times over. There can be absolutely no question that I was NOT tried by any correct process of Law (unfortunately I lost my chance to Appeal due to no fault of my own).

Once the system has you in its clutches, there is no escape.