I should also note that the reason we usually don't speak to the mother directly on the phone to discuss matters rather than have the daughter be the messenger is because the mother refused in mediation for any phone contact other than text message. She has twisted that how she likes and speaks on the phone mainly when she's angry. Our consent order says we will only speak via text and in a simple respectful way.
NSW Partner's Ex Refusing Visitation until Consent Orders are in Place?
- Thread starter Hpflstpmum
- Start date
In regards to costs, it's generally the length of proceedings that incurs the higher costs, and it's generally the stubbornness of the parties that incur the longer proceedings. In my own partner's case, for example, he spent $2,000 from beginning to end as a self-represented litigant and offered repeatedly to settle throughout the process, but the other parent refused to negotiate and ended up spending about $15,000 from beginning to end, then settled for what my partner was after anyway.
The other legal aspect I wanted to comment on was the frustration you're undoubtedly feeling about the other parent's actions. Fundamentally, there is nothing you can do about this, and in terms of legal proceedings, it rarely ever works to one parent's favour if they fill their affidavit with statements demonising the other parent. To the contrary, it's better for your partner to show that he is committed to working together with the mother to co-parent the child. Of course, any concerns should be raised, but they should be raised in terms of the best interests of the child, rather than in terms of how bad the mother is.
Finally, the care arrangements prior to the severance of contact are quite significant because it will be difficult to argue with those care arrangements that the child doesn't have a meaningful relationship with the father or that it shouldn't be continued. If there's no concerns from either party about whether the relationship between the child and the father is healthy, then it makes the process significantly easier.
Now, personal insight...
It sounds like I probably don't need to say this as you already suspect that it's probably not the right thing to do, but it's extremely important that you never, ever use the child as a messenger, regardless of what the mother has said about communication. Text message communication is all that is necessary between your partner and the other parent, and may even be too generous if it leads to more conflict. It doesn't bode well to suggest in any way that her mother is too poor to take care of her, it would simply be better to say, "Well, you don't need to worry about that, mummy will get you a puffer soon". After that you can either leave it, or send the mother a text informing her that you're either buying the puffer and sending it to her or depositing the money into her account. It's not necessary that you like the mother, but it is necessary that you respect the child's relationship with her, which means acting like mummy is the best mummy in the world whenever the child is present or in earshot.
As to your role as a step-parent, of course it would be wonderful if kids and parents and step-parents could all get along and enjoy their rights freely, but unfortunately, that is an ideal far different from reality, and it's best for the child if you do everything necessary to avoid exacerbating the conflict between her parents. Sometimes, this means not exercising your rights in order to protect the child. If the child is likely to be made to feel bad because she talked to you on the phone, then it's better not to talk to her on the phone. If the mother is likely to have a meltdown in front of the child because you're present at a changeover, then it's better that you don't attend changeovers. Children always need at least one parent doing everything necessary to protect them, even if it means making sacrifices they shouldn't have to make. It's also important that you ensure you're filling the role as a friend, rather than as a parent. It's often the encroachment of a step-parent on strictly parenting matters that prolongs conflict between the parents, contrary to the child's best interests. The court also prefers step-parents to be friends, not parents.
Applying all of this to the legal side of things, the court will order a family report if it feels it is necessary to do so, which is where a family consultant (usually a psychologist) observes and interviews each of the relevant parties, including mother, father, child and step-families. If the family consultant suspects one of the parties is putting the child in the middle or not acting in their best interests, it can detriment a case significantly.
The above comes from my own personal experience as a step-parent, rather than my experience in family law. In addition to that, don't get bogged down by the little tiffs and differences in parenting styles. The child will likely never have privacy during phone conversations and she will likely always hear about how terrible her father is, but all you and your partner can do to counter that impact is to just be good people who never fit into the mold you have been given. It's better to simply accept that hostility exists than it is to try and change one of the parties involved.
Anyway, I hope this helps. I'm not intending to offend, either, more just to help you establish a position that will strengthen your case, rather than risk weakening it.
At the end of the day, what your partner is asking is for his daughter to have the opportunity to continue having a meaningful relationship with him, and without contact, that's simply not possible. The time he is seeking is minimal, and on the facts provided, there's no issues with domestic violence or similar. To me, this case seems simple, but the court may think differently on hearing both sides of the story. In any case, as I said, your partner really has nothing to lose.
The other legal aspect I wanted to comment on was the frustration you're undoubtedly feeling about the other parent's actions. Fundamentally, there is nothing you can do about this, and in terms of legal proceedings, it rarely ever works to one parent's favour if they fill their affidavit with statements demonising the other parent. To the contrary, it's better for your partner to show that he is committed to working together with the mother to co-parent the child. Of course, any concerns should be raised, but they should be raised in terms of the best interests of the child, rather than in terms of how bad the mother is.
Finally, the care arrangements prior to the severance of contact are quite significant because it will be difficult to argue with those care arrangements that the child doesn't have a meaningful relationship with the father or that it shouldn't be continued. If there's no concerns from either party about whether the relationship between the child and the father is healthy, then it makes the process significantly easier.
Now, personal insight...
It sounds like I probably don't need to say this as you already suspect that it's probably not the right thing to do, but it's extremely important that you never, ever use the child as a messenger, regardless of what the mother has said about communication. Text message communication is all that is necessary between your partner and the other parent, and may even be too generous if it leads to more conflict. It doesn't bode well to suggest in any way that her mother is too poor to take care of her, it would simply be better to say, "Well, you don't need to worry about that, mummy will get you a puffer soon". After that you can either leave it, or send the mother a text informing her that you're either buying the puffer and sending it to her or depositing the money into her account. It's not necessary that you like the mother, but it is necessary that you respect the child's relationship with her, which means acting like mummy is the best mummy in the world whenever the child is present or in earshot.
As to your role as a step-parent, of course it would be wonderful if kids and parents and step-parents could all get along and enjoy their rights freely, but unfortunately, that is an ideal far different from reality, and it's best for the child if you do everything necessary to avoid exacerbating the conflict between her parents. Sometimes, this means not exercising your rights in order to protect the child. If the child is likely to be made to feel bad because she talked to you on the phone, then it's better not to talk to her on the phone. If the mother is likely to have a meltdown in front of the child because you're present at a changeover, then it's better that you don't attend changeovers. Children always need at least one parent doing everything necessary to protect them, even if it means making sacrifices they shouldn't have to make. It's also important that you ensure you're filling the role as a friend, rather than as a parent. It's often the encroachment of a step-parent on strictly parenting matters that prolongs conflict between the parents, contrary to the child's best interests. The court also prefers step-parents to be friends, not parents.
Applying all of this to the legal side of things, the court will order a family report if it feels it is necessary to do so, which is where a family consultant (usually a psychologist) observes and interviews each of the relevant parties, including mother, father, child and step-families. If the family consultant suspects one of the parties is putting the child in the middle or not acting in their best interests, it can detriment a case significantly.
The above comes from my own personal experience as a step-parent, rather than my experience in family law. In addition to that, don't get bogged down by the little tiffs and differences in parenting styles. The child will likely never have privacy during phone conversations and she will likely always hear about how terrible her father is, but all you and your partner can do to counter that impact is to just be good people who never fit into the mold you have been given. It's better to simply accept that hostility exists than it is to try and change one of the parties involved.
Anyway, I hope this helps. I'm not intending to offend, either, more just to help you establish a position that will strengthen your case, rather than risk weakening it.
At the end of the day, what your partner is asking is for his daughter to have the opportunity to continue having a meaningful relationship with him, and without contact, that's simply not possible. The time he is seeking is minimal, and on the facts provided, there's no issues with domestic violence or similar. To me, this case seems simple, but the court may think differently on hearing both sides of the story. In any case, as I said, your partner really has nothing to lose.You're absolutely right and I take what you said seriously. I definitely in no way want to jeopardize any chance we have of seeing the daughter and usually I am very careful with making sure her mother is always spoken about in the most appropriate and supportive way. I also agree about the phone conversations. I guess the battle will be that the daughter asks to speak with me so it will be how we phrase to her that I'm not able to talk to her without her thinking I'm rejecting her as I've known her since she was a baby.
Thank you for your perspective as it has definitely changed the way I look at that situation.
We will be continuing to do everything in our power to see the daughter without the need for a 'competition' because we are not out to do that at all. My partner misses his daughter and the bottom line is we just want to see her while at the same time showing the mother we want to co-parent. It's so difficult when she doesn't want to see or allow that. I think we'll have to put our trust into the judge and let them do their job.
Fingers crossed we get somewhere before Christmas time!!!
Thank you for your perspective as it has definitely changed the way I look at that situation.
We will be continuing to do everything in our power to see the daughter without the need for a 'competition' because we are not out to do that at all. My partner misses his daughter and the bottom line is we just want to see her while at the same time showing the mother we want to co-parent. It's so difficult when she doesn't want to see or allow that. I think we'll have to put our trust into the judge and let them do their job.
Fingers crossed we get somewhere before Christmas time!!!
If the daughter is asking to speak to you, but you know it will result in her being berated or exposed to conflict in some way, then when the daughter asks to speak to you, the father can simply say, 'X is busy at the moment, but she said to say hello' or 'X is out getting groceries, but I can pass on a message from you if you like', and then move on to the next topic of conversation. Sure, it's not entirely truthful, but kids don't always need the truth if the truth is going to cause problems for them.
The goal, always, is to do whatever is best to the child, no matter the cost to you.
The goal, always, is to do whatever is best to the child, no matter the cost to you.
good on you guys-had a read...Hpflstpmum, you sound exactly like my partner and i.
I could have sworn i wrote your opening post myself.
Although i feel we are probably 18 months into your future...however stuck on same spot as you again.
good luck with it and keep us informed.
I could have sworn i wrote your opening post myself.
Although i feel we are probably 18 months into your future...however stuck on same spot as you again.
good luck with it and keep us informed.
Oh no! Really? Did you acquire a consent order or interim order? I'm so sorry you're having to go through that. It's truly torturous.
Interim orders will always be ordered in parenting proceedings if you request them. Of course, that doesn't mean they will reflect the interim orders you're seeking, but it's very common for the court to order that the child spend some sort of time time with the other parent as interim orders.
Hpflstpmum-we did mediation for a 2014 parenting plan at the end of 2013, went okay for a few months and then the mum started to turn it up. eg. not turning up to drop offs, and basically denyng all access.
Last half of 2014, we only saw daughter for maybe 10 nights. We then tried again for 2015 parenting plan at start of this year, after 3 hours mediation come to a agreement, every third weekend and then 8 nights in hols...lasted one week and she made it "redundant". Since then we haven't seen her (8 months), I actually think it hurts my partner more than me, she is honestly a great step mum.
Anyway we have made about 5 or 6 offers to settle an agreement into consent orders through her lawyer...they agreed but with ridiculous inclusions making it impossible to agree, nor would a court..eg. father cannot work at anytime when daughter is in his care/we do all drop offs pick ups and she has every special day. e.g. birthday, Christmas, etc.
Anyway, we are trying again for a 2016 agreement, mediation is in 4 weeks, hopefully agree and it will be made into consent orders. Unfortunately, I am going in optimistic but can't see an agreement getting made then into consent orders.
Her last offer for us was, one day a month on a Sunday 7am to 7pm....that's it and wanted it made into consent order.
I'll keep in touch
Last half of 2014, we only saw daughter for maybe 10 nights. We then tried again for 2015 parenting plan at start of this year, after 3 hours mediation come to a agreement, every third weekend and then 8 nights in hols...lasted one week and she made it "redundant". Since then we haven't seen her (8 months), I actually think it hurts my partner more than me, she is honestly a great step mum.
Anyway we have made about 5 or 6 offers to settle an agreement into consent orders through her lawyer...they agreed but with ridiculous inclusions making it impossible to agree, nor would a court..eg. father cannot work at anytime when daughter is in his care/we do all drop offs pick ups and she has every special day. e.g. birthday, Christmas, etc.
Anyway, we are trying again for a 2016 agreement, mediation is in 4 weeks, hopefully agree and it will be made into consent orders. Unfortunately, I am going in optimistic but can't see an agreement getting made then into consent orders.
Her last offer for us was, one day a month on a Sunday 7am to 7pm....that's it and wanted it made into consent order.
I'll keep in touch