QLD Family Law Court - Getting a Copy of Sealed Orders?
- Thread starter prosurfer
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Thank you AllForHer, as you said I would prefer to stay away from legal matters and put this all behind me but it appears the mother has other ideas. Could you help me with another question please?
My daughter was talking to her mother as per the orders today and walked through the room where my partner was sitting with speaker phone on (my daughter is only 4) and my partner heard the mother saying things we consider very inappropriate. The orders state we have to allow these phone conversations and we are not allowed to listen to confirm that the conversation is appropriate; what can we do about this?
My daughter was talking to her mother as per the orders today and walked through the room where my partner was sitting with speaker phone on (my daughter is only 4) and my partner heard the mother saying things we consider very inappropriate. The orders state we have to allow these phone conversations and we are not allowed to listen to confirm that the conversation is appropriate; what can we do about this?
Prosurfer, is it possible the mother is 'baiting' you in view of the orders saying you are not allowed to listen? Your child is 4 years old. It's not appropriate to leave a 4yo to her own devices including when having a phone conversation.
As you said, the child was walking through the room. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that you are going to close a 4yo with a phone, in a room and no one will hear the conversation. In light of the history (I had a quick read of your case), I don't see how such an order could hold up if the mother is continuing to say inappropriate things.
As you said, the child was walking through the room. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that you are going to close a 4yo with a phone, in a room and no one will hear the conversation. In light of the history (I had a quick read of your case), I don't see how such an order could hold up if the mother is continuing to say inappropriate things.
The problem with a lot of ancillary orders is that they are fundamentally unenforceable. Some will have issues with evidence, others will have issues with the orders being open to interpretation, and many are simply too trivial for the parties, or the Court, to quantify spending resources on.
Your case is actually a good example of an order being open to interpretation - the order regarding non-denigration, etc. is apparently in effect when the child is with either parent, rather than communicating with either parent, so if you were to file a contravention order, it would be difficult for the Court to impose any kind of penalty in the first instance when the orders don't really impose any restriction on what's said during a phone call. At best, the Court might clarify the order.
However, I think the more pertinent question is whether any parenting orders made by the Court can actually stay the mother's poor conduct in practice. The reality of the matter is that parenting orders really only protect the child's right to be parented by both parents. They are significantly less capable of protecting the child from how their mum and dad choose to parent them.
So, rather than looking to legal avenues for redress, I'm inclined to suggest looking for remedies in the home. You are, after all, the primary carer, now, so it's your parenting style that will have the most influence on the child.
I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will give you an example (just one, of many) from my own experience with my stepdaughter.
Mum's phone calls used to be inappropriate in that they were quite manipulative - "Here's all the fun kid-friendly stuff I'm doing while you're at dad's"; "Oh, is that all you're doing at dad's? That sounds so boring"; "Your cat misses you so much, he cried and cried and cried all night because he couldn't find you"; and then eventually, "You sound so sad, what's wrong? Do you miss mummy, do you? Well, if dad says you can come home, I'll come and get you straight away".
At the time, we only had my stepdaughter every second weekend, so as you can imagine, it was quite harrowing for my husband to have his daughter ask in tears to go back to mum's house after speaking to her on the phone. Sometimes, my stepdaughter would refuse to speak to her mum all together, such was the negative feeling that phone calls inspired in her, I think.
Perhaps it wasn't my place, perhaps it was manipulative on my part, but I approached it by changing the message that her mum was giving her. "Mummy knows when you're at dad's, maybe you could ask her to organise some fun things to do when you're at her house? Does mummy tell your cat that you're just at dad's and you'll be back on Monday?" Etc.
Eventually, my stepdaughter started asking her mum the same questions of her own accord, and so eventually, mum stopped trying to use phone calls to influence her feelings about being at dad's. Phone calls are much better, now.
So, rather than look for legal redress, see if there's some other way to manage it in the home. Use the vast amount of time you now have with her, to be the predominant influence on her.
Your case is actually a good example of an order being open to interpretation - the order regarding non-denigration, etc. is apparently in effect when the child is with either parent, rather than communicating with either parent, so if you were to file a contravention order, it would be difficult for the Court to impose any kind of penalty in the first instance when the orders don't really impose any restriction on what's said during a phone call. At best, the Court might clarify the order.
However, I think the more pertinent question is whether any parenting orders made by the Court can actually stay the mother's poor conduct in practice. The reality of the matter is that parenting orders really only protect the child's right to be parented by both parents. They are significantly less capable of protecting the child from how their mum and dad choose to parent them.
So, rather than looking to legal avenues for redress, I'm inclined to suggest looking for remedies in the home. You are, after all, the primary carer, now, so it's your parenting style that will have the most influence on the child.
I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will give you an example (just one, of many) from my own experience with my stepdaughter.
Mum's phone calls used to be inappropriate in that they were quite manipulative - "Here's all the fun kid-friendly stuff I'm doing while you're at dad's"; "Oh, is that all you're doing at dad's? That sounds so boring"; "Your cat misses you so much, he cried and cried and cried all night because he couldn't find you"; and then eventually, "You sound so sad, what's wrong? Do you miss mummy, do you? Well, if dad says you can come home, I'll come and get you straight away".
At the time, we only had my stepdaughter every second weekend, so as you can imagine, it was quite harrowing for my husband to have his daughter ask in tears to go back to mum's house after speaking to her on the phone. Sometimes, my stepdaughter would refuse to speak to her mum all together, such was the negative feeling that phone calls inspired in her, I think.
Perhaps it wasn't my place, perhaps it was manipulative on my part, but I approached it by changing the message that her mum was giving her. "Mummy knows when you're at dad's, maybe you could ask her to organise some fun things to do when you're at her house? Does mummy tell your cat that you're just at dad's and you'll be back on Monday?" Etc.
Eventually, my stepdaughter started asking her mum the same questions of her own accord, and so eventually, mum stopped trying to use phone calls to influence her feelings about being at dad's. Phone calls are much better, now.
So, rather than look for legal redress, see if there's some other way to manage it in the home. Use the vast amount of time you now have with her, to be the predominant influence on her.
My ex does *exactly* this. "The dog misses you so much. We went to the park and he saw a group of kids and looked to see if you were with them, and when he couldn't find you he was so depressed." "Dog keeps going into your bedrooms looking for you, then coming out again feeling so sad because you're not there."
Every phone call.
Prosurfer - mate I read your orders... Did I miss something, but I don't think there is anything in there that says you can't monitor phone calls?
Look if the content of the phone calls is a concern, you could write /email to express your concerns.... You could mention that you'll rely on the correspondence in court if required... So it is a subtle bluff that you'll take her back to court.
But mate I don't think you want to go back to court... So I had orders that said phone calls between 6pm and 6.30... So she took that as me having to call at 6pm exactly... 5.59 No good, 6.01 Nope... and wouldn't you know it... her watch never said 6pm when I rang... Worth taking back to court? Nope...
Look if the content of the phone calls is a concern, you could write /email to express your concerns.... You could mention that you'll rely on the correspondence in court if required... So it is a subtle bluff that you'll take her back to court.
But mate I don't think you want to go back to court... So I had orders that said phone calls between 6pm and 6.30... So she took that as me having to call at 6pm exactly... 5.59 No good, 6.01 Nope... and wouldn't you know it... her watch never said 6pm when I rang... Worth taking back to court? Nope...
Thank you everyone, after rechecking the orders it appears that I do not have to give privacy during phone conversations - the ICL requested that order but the judge did not make that order in the end. The mother is doing as you all described by talking about things at her house to upset the child, but also more concerning telling the child that she (the child) hates living with here and that it happened because she (the child) lied and she is going to get her back living with her. Presumably since I am permitted to monitor the conversation I am within my rights to end the call in such circumstances or would that be a breach? Should I record the calls in case the mother tries to file a contravention for this?
so a few things.
1 - check the orders... Do they say anything about not making derogitory comments... They often do... Sorry mate, I don't have time to sit and read through your orders again... I had a look and I don't think private phone calls are necessary...Is there skype? or similar style contact? BUT if there is something about not making derogatory comments about you to the kid then I reckon you are going to have a few good options.
Ok so options... email the ex, cc the ICL. outlining your concerns. Put her on notice... Look recording the phone calls could be more trouble than it is worth... It is not what normal sensible folk do... TRUE? Mate this stuff makes normal sensible people crazy... Ok so my thought - make sure the ex knows you're listening in. Make sure you document everything... Make sure you let her know it has to stop...
Now just checking - this case is finalised. So from here to the foreseeable future - the mun's contact is at contact centre??? wow that says something.
Mate if you have to, after giving some gentle reminders, then stop the calls. She is clearly a nutter, learn ot self represent and if she wants to do you for contravening because you're not giving access to phone calls. Let her... But only do it after you've given her fair warning.
Ok - one more thing... Just outa interest.... How much $$$ do you rekcon you've thrown at this thing so far?
1 - check the orders... Do they say anything about not making derogitory comments... They often do... Sorry mate, I don't have time to sit and read through your orders again... I had a look and I don't think private phone calls are necessary...Is there skype? or similar style contact? BUT if there is something about not making derogatory comments about you to the kid then I reckon you are going to have a few good options.
Ok so options... email the ex, cc the ICL. outlining your concerns. Put her on notice... Look recording the phone calls could be more trouble than it is worth... It is not what normal sensible folk do... TRUE? Mate this stuff makes normal sensible people crazy... Ok so my thought - make sure the ex knows you're listening in. Make sure you document everything... Make sure you let her know it has to stop...
Now just checking - this case is finalised. So from here to the foreseeable future - the mun's contact is at contact centre??? wow that says something.
Mate if you have to, after giving some gentle reminders, then stop the calls. She is clearly a nutter, learn ot self represent and if she wants to do you for contravening because you're not giving access to phone calls. Let her... But only do it after you've given her fair warning.
Ok - one more thing... Just outa interest.... How much $$$ do you rekcon you've thrown at this thing so far?
Look, you've really got all the power here.
If phone calls seem to be perpetuating a false narrative that was rejected by the Court, then stop the phone calls. If she wants to file a contravention, let her. It's obviously not in the child's best interests to be repeatedly told things that have been found untrue, and I can even point you to cases where the judges have said the same. A contravention of this nature and in these circumstances is not going to result in a reversal of residency. To the contrary, the other parent may find herself in hot water with no contact at all.
If phone calls seem to be perpetuating a false narrative that was rejected by the Court, then stop the phone calls. If she wants to file a contravention, let her. It's obviously not in the child's best interests to be repeatedly told things that have been found untrue, and I can even point you to cases where the judges have said the same. A contravention of this nature and in these circumstances is not going to result in a reversal of residency. To the contrary, the other parent may find herself in hot water with no contact at all.
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