She is offering make up time? wow awesome. I can't even remember the details of your case because you've been posting here so long... Probably about the same amount of time as myself.... But from what I can remember, you've made huge progress to get to a point where she is offering make up time. Small wins...
COVID and the legality/ethics of isolation
- Thread starter GlassHalfFull
- Start date
The rules are tricky. My household had covid, I was really unwell. I had the children in my care and spoke to QLD health twice who said that OP could collect the children from me (ie I could not leave my house) but the children would still have to isolate as a close contact.
I offered OP to have them (it was OPs weekend) but he spoke to someone who said no… I then spoke to QLD health again who confirmed that children can travel between households for shared care, but the isolation rules apply to them and them only.. ie OP and partner could leave the home freely and are not close contacts (unless of course the children tested positive - they didn’t).
In these times I guess we all just do what we think is right until we know otherwise
I offered OP to have them (it was OPs weekend) but he spoke to someone who said no… I then spoke to QLD health again who confirmed that children can travel between households for shared care, but the isolation rules apply to them and them only.. ie OP and partner could leave the home freely and are not close contacts (unless of course the children tested positive - they didn’t).
In these times I guess we all just do what we think is right until we know otherwise
Indeed. She's still a very difficult person to co-parent with, and unfortunately like you said: there's a power dynamic imbalance between us, as she has the majority of the care and therefore the majority of the control over situations, and effectively my time with the children is more valuable to me than it is for her so I usually end up having to blink first in stand offs because although she's difficult now, she could be far more difficult if I actually stick up for myself.
But yes, I've made major progress considering where we started: It all started with false allegations of a pretty serious nature (both violence towards her and sexual abuse of my 1-2 year old (😢🤯🤬), Child Protection involvement who were incredibly biased and determined there was a risk to my two children despite no evidence, I had no contact with kids at all for 4 months, then by getting an urgent application to the family court, I was put under private supervision only which cost me somewhere in the region of $15,000 over a period of almost a year while waiting for the cogs of the court system to turn and for Child Protection to put their money where their mouth was (at the last minute when invited to participate in a contested hearing, they withdrew their involvement), then finally supervision was removed since there was no evidence to support my ex's claims, but until you reach a trial, nothing is really ever tested thoroughly so the allegations still effectively dangle over you indefinitely. I've had slow incremental improvements over the last couple of years due to her opposing every single progression and only agreeing to the bare minimum at the last minute when confronted with the reality that it was going to happen whether it's by order of the judge or by consent order.
I don't even know if she still honestly believes all of her BS, but regardless of whether she does or she doesn't, she milks the DV/abuse claims every chance she gets.
The rules are tricky. My household had covid, I was really unwell. I had the children in my care and spoke to QLD health twice who said that OP could collect the children from me (ie I could not leave my house) but the children would still have to isolate as a close contact.
I offered OP to have them (it was OPs weekend) but he spoke to someone who said no… I then spoke to QLD health again who confirmed that children can travel between households for shared care, but the isolation rules apply to them and them only.. ie OP and partner could leave the home freely and are not close contacts (unless of course the children tested positive - they didn’t).
In these times I guess we all just do what we think is right until we know otherwise
Yes that's what I've heard too. Effectively the only reason you can allow children to leave their isolation 'bubble' is if their parents are unable to care for them and need to go to another parent or family member. My ex did say that if she became too sick, she would let me know and I could collect the children then. But I don't expect that will happen. It's been almost a week and if she was going to reach that point, she probably would have by now.
Probably a good thing if she doesn’t get too unwell, but QH didn’t mention that I had to be unable to care for them to send them to OP, just that shared care can continue so long as isolation rules are followed. But in the case of OP & I we were told different things, the grey areas make it very difficult and IMO, it should be clearer to avoid arguments such as the one you’ve had to experience.
In my case, OP didn’t want to expose his household to covid and his time was made up as soon as the children left isolation. It was boring for them though to be stuck in a house with an unwell parent and I really didn’t want them to get it.
An update: I let the issue of whether to break isolation go, and simply focused my efforts on discussing how to arrange for the next opportunity to see my children after their isolation expired this Friday.
* My ex then told me by email my elder child has now tested positive (as of Tuesday 22nd Feb), and that therefore they would ALL be isolating for a further 7 days. I was due to have the children this weekend from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon, after having already missed two overnights.
* I pointed out in reply that there is no requirement for everyone in their household to 're-isolate' beyond their individual week of isolation just because someone else in the household tests positive, and that given my ex and younger daughter had already been isolating due to testing positive to Covid, they would exit isolation this Friday 25th not next Wednesday 30th. I provided links to Health Direct guidelines that specifically detail the 7 days isolation rule, along with rules that state there is no further requirement to isolate or even be tested for 30 days following their positive result. I reiterated that I expected for her to hand over my younger child on the weekend as per our court orders after she had completed her 7 days of isolation, but accepted that my elder daughter would not be able to given her isolation would extend beyond the weekend.
* I waited 2 days without any reply and asked for a response. My ex then said that my daughter had breathing difficulties and she had been in touch with the local hospital (as part of a "Covid Positive Pathways" program to assist positive covid cases by telehealth) and that they prescribed her with a steroid to assist her recovery. She then went on to say that the "doctors are clear that given the children are still experiencing symptoms they should rest and continue isolating at one address." and that therefore they would not be coming this weekend.
* I replied to say I disputed the accuracy of that advice, saying that the purpose of isolation in a single household is to prevent the spread of Covid, and not a health-related requirement, and said that I was more than capable of caring for my daughter too. Incidentally, I also spoke to the children by video call the night before and they were in great spirits, not seemingly sick at all, and I asked them if they felt sick. They said no. So while I'm not disputing that they may be experiencing any symptoms of Covid, I think my ex is completely exaggerating the extent of their illness, which is something she has always tended to do. I asked her to provide a letter from the doctor confirming that my daughter must isolate at home until next Tuesday and must not leave the house to go to her father's residence. I re-iterated my position that unless she could provide evidence of a doctor's recommendation not to leave the house, I would expect that she would follow the court orders and hand over my daughter as per our orders. I also asked her to provide the name of the doctor who provided that advice, as I wanted to verify it myself.
For the record, we have court orders that specifically say:
11. That both parents keep the other advised as to:
(a) Illness or injury affecting the children or either of them;
(b) The names and contact details of any and all health professionals to which the children or either of them attend, noting that either parent may contact health professionals independently of the other for the purpose of obtaining information as the children’s welfare;
(c) The dates and times of the children’s medical and allied health appointments;
(d) Any health issue requiring prescribed medication, noting that any such prescribed medication requiring application during the other parent’s time with the children shall be so provided at and returned at changeover;
* My ex replied to say "I don't appreciate you demanding a letter when we are all unwell and trying to recover". She requested that I stop my demands for her and 'overworked hospital staff' to provide a letter, and ignored my request to be given the details of the doctor which she is required to do as per our orders (again, something that needed to be included because she had systematically avoided me being involved in their health in the past).
* I pointed out in reply that I'm not demanding a letter, I'm asking that she follow the court orders and hand over my daughter given that there is no requirement for her isolate anymore and she has not provided any evidence of her claim that withholding my daughter is on medical advice. I pointed out again that I am capable of looking after my daughter if she is sick too, and that the court orders are there to ensure that both of us are able to be involved parents to our children and our children's right to maintain a relationship with us. I then pointed out that she doesn't have the right to choose to ignore the court orders when it suits her, especially on the authority of a doctor's health advice without any evidence that it was ever given. I once again asked that she respect the court orders and hand over my daughter this weekend.
* She responded to say that given my email, she suggests my lawyer contact her lawyer.
* This evening, I called the hospital "Covid positive pathways" hotline, and after intially being given the runaround for a good 10 minutes due to 'confidentiality' and 'isolation recommendations are the jurisdiction of DHHS, not us", I eventually got put through to a team leader who admitted that they do not provide any advice on isolation, even when it comes to health advice, because it is not within their remit. So while the team leader refused to comment on whether they had any medical records relating to my daughter (which is BS because I do have a right to access them), they did basically confirm that my ex would never have received advice that my daughter cannot leave isolation to be with me this weekend.
So there we have it. It continues to "suck". My ex is now overtly breaching our court orders on a flimsy at best health argument, and more than likely outright lies, and I have now not seen my children in almost 2 weeks and it seems will not see them for another extra 5-6 days because my ex thinks she's above the law.
* My ex then told me by email my elder child has now tested positive (as of Tuesday 22nd Feb), and that therefore they would ALL be isolating for a further 7 days. I was due to have the children this weekend from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon, after having already missed two overnights.
* I pointed out in reply that there is no requirement for everyone in their household to 're-isolate' beyond their individual week of isolation just because someone else in the household tests positive, and that given my ex and younger daughter had already been isolating due to testing positive to Covid, they would exit isolation this Friday 25th not next Wednesday 30th. I provided links to Health Direct guidelines that specifically detail the 7 days isolation rule, along with rules that state there is no further requirement to isolate or even be tested for 30 days following their positive result. I reiterated that I expected for her to hand over my younger child on the weekend as per our court orders after she had completed her 7 days of isolation, but accepted that my elder daughter would not be able to given her isolation would extend beyond the weekend.
* I waited 2 days without any reply and asked for a response. My ex then said that my daughter had breathing difficulties and she had been in touch with the local hospital (as part of a "Covid Positive Pathways" program to assist positive covid cases by telehealth) and that they prescribed her with a steroid to assist her recovery. She then went on to say that the "doctors are clear that given the children are still experiencing symptoms they should rest and continue isolating at one address." and that therefore they would not be coming this weekend.
* I replied to say I disputed the accuracy of that advice, saying that the purpose of isolation in a single household is to prevent the spread of Covid, and not a health-related requirement, and said that I was more than capable of caring for my daughter too. Incidentally, I also spoke to the children by video call the night before and they were in great spirits, not seemingly sick at all, and I asked them if they felt sick. They said no. So while I'm not disputing that they may be experiencing any symptoms of Covid, I think my ex is completely exaggerating the extent of their illness, which is something she has always tended to do. I asked her to provide a letter from the doctor confirming that my daughter must isolate at home until next Tuesday and must not leave the house to go to her father's residence. I re-iterated my position that unless she could provide evidence of a doctor's recommendation not to leave the house, I would expect that she would follow the court orders and hand over my daughter as per our orders. I also asked her to provide the name of the doctor who provided that advice, as I wanted to verify it myself.
For the record, we have court orders that specifically say:
11. That both parents keep the other advised as to:
(a) Illness or injury affecting the children or either of them;
(b) The names and contact details of any and all health professionals to which the children or either of them attend, noting that either parent may contact health professionals independently of the other for the purpose of obtaining information as the children’s welfare;
(c) The dates and times of the children’s medical and allied health appointments;
(d) Any health issue requiring prescribed medication, noting that any such prescribed medication requiring application during the other parent’s time with the children shall be so provided at and returned at changeover;
* My ex replied to say "I don't appreciate you demanding a letter when we are all unwell and trying to recover". She requested that I stop my demands for her and 'overworked hospital staff' to provide a letter, and ignored my request to be given the details of the doctor which she is required to do as per our orders (again, something that needed to be included because she had systematically avoided me being involved in their health in the past).
* I pointed out in reply that I'm not demanding a letter, I'm asking that she follow the court orders and hand over my daughter given that there is no requirement for her isolate anymore and she has not provided any evidence of her claim that withholding my daughter is on medical advice. I pointed out again that I am capable of looking after my daughter if she is sick too, and that the court orders are there to ensure that both of us are able to be involved parents to our children and our children's right to maintain a relationship with us. I then pointed out that she doesn't have the right to choose to ignore the court orders when it suits her, especially on the authority of a doctor's health advice without any evidence that it was ever given. I once again asked that she respect the court orders and hand over my daughter this weekend.
* She responded to say that given my email, she suggests my lawyer contact her lawyer.
* This evening, I called the hospital "Covid positive pathways" hotline, and after intially being given the runaround for a good 10 minutes due to 'confidentiality' and 'isolation recommendations are the jurisdiction of DHHS, not us", I eventually got put through to a team leader who admitted that they do not provide any advice on isolation, even when it comes to health advice, because it is not within their remit. So while the team leader refused to comment on whether they had any medical records relating to my daughter (which is BS because I do have a right to access them), they did basically confirm that my ex would never have received advice that my daughter cannot leave isolation to be with me this weekend.
So there we have it. It continues to "suck". My ex is now overtly breaching our court orders on a flimsy at best health argument, and more than likely outright lies, and I have now not seen my children in almost 2 weeks and it seems will not see them for another extra 5-6 days because my ex thinks she's above the law.
Incidentally, I did have one related question. We finalised our parenting orders by consent in October 2021, and I haven't needed to contact my lawyer who was working with me to reach that point. We effectively wished each other well in the future, but didn't 'sever' the representation officially in any way. Do I have to use my lawyer to contact her lawyer? I would much rather write to her lawyer directly to point out their client's disregard for the court orders and for our daughter's right to maintain their relationship with their father as per the court orders in circumstances where there is no evidence of a medical or public health related reason for withholding. If she wants to waste her money paying her lawyer to represent her about this, that's her business, but I would much rather represent myself on this. It's important symbolically to hold firm here, but it's not worth the $500/hr+ that I have to pay for representation.
ok, you can write to her solicitor. That will cost her a few $$$... She will likely then end her 'relationship' with her laywer and write back. Not much achieved.
Worth applying to court? nope. Keep this in the back pocket in case you see more stupidity is a better idea.
An even better idea is asking for make up time. My concerns is that she'll rant about how unreasonable you're being (I know... I know) and if there is nothing in the orders about make up time you'll get my favorite conundrum... The one where you tell her she is not following the orders - and then when you ask for something that is not in the orders (make up time) she reminds you she doesn't have to because it is not in the orders, while ignoring the fact that she isn't following the orders with regards to the medical sutff. Leaving you with a great big WTF...
Regardless. The family law act says it is not a convtravention of the respondent believed breaching was necessary for health and safety of a person. You're no a hiding to nothing.
Worth applying to court? nope. Keep this in the back pocket in case you see more stupidity is a better idea.
An even better idea is asking for make up time. My concerns is that she'll rant about how unreasonable you're being (I know... I know) and if there is nothing in the orders about make up time you'll get my favorite conundrum... The one where you tell her she is not following the orders - and then when you ask for something that is not in the orders (make up time) she reminds you she doesn't have to because it is not in the orders, while ignoring the fact that she isn't following the orders with regards to the medical sutff. Leaving you with a great big WTF...
Regardless. The family law act says it is not a convtravention of the respondent believed breaching was necessary for health and safety of a person. You're no a hiding to nothing.
No.
I like this.
You can contact her lawyer AND you can ask for make up time.
She has agreed to make up time. On her terms on days that she wants, and presumably I have no say it in or they won't be offered, because that's how it generally works with her and in general when one person has the power over a situation (indeed Sammy). It's not really about that anymore. This isn't just about make up time. It's the fact that she's 'making up' the rules up as she goes, and is choosing to not follow court orders without a valid reason.
Unfortunately, I know that when it comes to health and safety, provisions in the Family Law Act mean a parent can withhold without consequences if it can be persuasively argued that they felt they were protecting the health/safety of their child by doing so, and it's in that grey area where I can see so much wiggle room for crap like this.
So, after writing to her lawyer on Friday morning explaining in quite some detail how she is breaching the orders (and gave some other historic examples of orders being broken in relation to not denigrating the other parent in front of the children, as I'd been sitting on them for a while and my ex had pretty much ignored my requests to address denigration), I got a response later from her later that afternoon that her lawyer received my letter but was busy on another matter today and would not be responding to me, but that she would still not provide my daughter for handover this weekend. She then advised she had a telehealth session with the GP and provided a doctor's letter from that GP stating that "the mother has informed me that [daughter] is still having URTI (upper respiratory tract infection) symptoms". She then provided the following link to DHHS's website:
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/checklist-cases
And that's where I discovered that, buried deep down on the page under "Ending isolation and recovering long-term", there is the following guidelines:
So we have the doctor's vague letter that basically says "the mother told me the child is unwell but I could not/did not verify this as it was a telehealth appointment", with no context whatsoever about his recommendations based on those 'symptoms'. And we have my ex who is citing a policy stating that anyone with a sore throat, runny nose, cough or shortness of breath should effectively continue isolating indefinitely until they no longer have any of those symptoms for 24 hours. Which is clearly NOT a well thought-out policy because post-infection covid symptoms can last for weeks or months without that person being infectious. Surely a more logical policy would be to take a further RAT test if you still have symptoms?! In any case, the policy is clearly designed to err on the side of caution and is pretty much in complete contradiction to the other DHHS policy which states that once you've isolated for 7 days, you are free to leave isolation, no test required!
So my question now, brains trust, is whether this gives my ex a 'get out of jail free' card in terms of contravention of orders??? She hasn't provided any evidence that my daughter is still showing symptoms. To the best of my knowledge, all interactions with doctors have been by phone and 100% based on what my ex has told them, rather than any independent assessment. In fact, I actually have zero evidence that she even had Covid in the first place, and now with how dishonest and shifty my ex is being, I'm not sure if I trust her to have told me the truth about ANY of what has transpired over the last two weeks. I had a video call with my daughter on Friday evening and she was ABSOLUTELY fine. Chrirpy, bubbly, no sign of any tiredness or illness. I specifically asked her if she felt unwell and she said no. My elder daughter also mentioned, when I asked what they had been up to, that they had friends come over to visit over the last few days. Despite my daughter still OFFICIALLY being in isolation as she tested positive on Tuesday and should be isolating until NEXT Tuesday.
So in summary: my ex is still withholding on very flimsy grounds, I haven't seen my kids in 2 weeks and have missed 5 days of time with them, and meanwhile my ex is happy to have friends come over to visit them during their isolation but refuses to respect court orders to provide shared care of our children. Where do I go from here? Write another letter to her lawyer with Friday's update? If he refuses to engage with me, I assume my only recourse is either make note of all this and bank it for another day if this sort of thing happens again, or file a contravention and see where the chips fall.
Unfortunately, I know that when it comes to health and safety, provisions in the Family Law Act mean a parent can withhold without consequences if it can be persuasively argued that they felt they were protecting the health/safety of their child by doing so, and it's in that grey area where I can see so much wiggle room for crap like this.
So, after writing to her lawyer on Friday morning explaining in quite some detail how she is breaching the orders (and gave some other historic examples of orders being broken in relation to not denigrating the other parent in front of the children, as I'd been sitting on them for a while and my ex had pretty much ignored my requests to address denigration), I got a response later from her later that afternoon that her lawyer received my letter but was busy on another matter today and would not be responding to me, but that she would still not provide my daughter for handover this weekend. She then advised she had a telehealth session with the GP and provided a doctor's letter from that GP stating that "the mother has informed me that [daughter] is still having URTI (upper respiratory tract infection) symptoms". She then provided the following link to DHHS's website:
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/checklist-cases
And that's where I discovered that, buried deep down on the page under "Ending isolation and recovering long-term", there is the following guidelines:
So we have the doctor's vague letter that basically says "the mother told me the child is unwell but I could not/did not verify this as it was a telehealth appointment", with no context whatsoever about his recommendations based on those 'symptoms'. And we have my ex who is citing a policy stating that anyone with a sore throat, runny nose, cough or shortness of breath should effectively continue isolating indefinitely until they no longer have any of those symptoms for 24 hours. Which is clearly NOT a well thought-out policy because post-infection covid symptoms can last for weeks or months without that person being infectious. Surely a more logical policy would be to take a further RAT test if you still have symptoms?! In any case, the policy is clearly designed to err on the side of caution and is pretty much in complete contradiction to the other DHHS policy which states that once you've isolated for 7 days, you are free to leave isolation, no test required!
So my question now, brains trust, is whether this gives my ex a 'get out of jail free' card in terms of contravention of orders??? She hasn't provided any evidence that my daughter is still showing symptoms. To the best of my knowledge, all interactions with doctors have been by phone and 100% based on what my ex has told them, rather than any independent assessment. In fact, I actually have zero evidence that she even had Covid in the first place, and now with how dishonest and shifty my ex is being, I'm not sure if I trust her to have told me the truth about ANY of what has transpired over the last two weeks. I had a video call with my daughter on Friday evening and she was ABSOLUTELY fine. Chrirpy, bubbly, no sign of any tiredness or illness. I specifically asked her if she felt unwell and she said no. My elder daughter also mentioned, when I asked what they had been up to, that they had friends come over to visit over the last few days. Despite my daughter still OFFICIALLY being in isolation as she tested positive on Tuesday and should be isolating until NEXT Tuesday.
So in summary: my ex is still withholding on very flimsy grounds, I haven't seen my kids in 2 weeks and have missed 5 days of time with them, and meanwhile my ex is happy to have friends come over to visit them during their isolation but refuses to respect court orders to provide shared care of our children. Where do I go from here? Write another letter to her lawyer with Friday's update? If he refuses to engage with me, I assume my only recourse is either make note of all this and bank it for another day if this sort of thing happens again, or file a contravention and see where the chips fall.
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