COVID and the legality/ethics of isolation

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GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
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Sorry, I know I'm a broken record.. but I guess I'll try to state the question very simply: How long should someone have to wait for a response letter from an opposing party's solicitor? For something that like this which is arguably quite time sensitive and important (allegations of a parenting orders contravention and make up time).

And other than actually filing a contravention application, is there anything that one can do to apply pressure to make progress? Are there any code of conduct guidelines regarding something like this?
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
6 February 2019
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other than actually filing a contravention application, is there anything that one can do to apply pressure to make progress? Are there any code of conduct guidelines regarding something like this?
The other parties lawyer has zero obligation. There are no codes of conduct that I am aware of specifically dealing with how a lawyer should deal with an SRL.

It's my experience that an SRL is ignored at best, but can also be treated with a degree of arrogance & contempt when a response is made.... The only language that is likley to initiate any action, is filing for court action.... Not worth doing in this case IMO (If this is the withhold due to covid & close contacts that is)
 

sammy01

Well-Known Member
27 September 2015
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Yeah, you gotta remember, the solicitor works for the client (your ex). NOT YOU.
So the ex doesn't wanna waste and $ getting the solicitor to write back.

Now I reckon the ex was within her rights to withold the kids. "Reasonable excuse". Now I know you disagree with me on this one. But let's put it on a spectrum. Unreasonable - No judge is gonna tell me what to do. Unreasonable. It was raining and I didn't wanna drive in the rain. Reasonanable - The family law act says something about protecting people from harm and there is an isolation rule for people who have Covid... Sure YOU reckon this one is totally unreasonable, but in comparison to the other crap excuses a judge must see - This one is reasonable.

So I reckon you wrote above that this isn't worth taking for a contravention. So the ex is calling your bluff.... She's saying go on champ - take this to a judge DARE YA... But she isn't gonna waste any more of her energy on it - and frankly neither should you.
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
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Regardless of whether the solicitor is legally obligated to write to me or whether there was a reasonable excuse for withholding, he literally advised me a month ago that he had been instructed to write a letter in response to my claims that the withholding of the children was unreasonable, and that he anticipated doing so by the end of the following week (about 10 days), which I felt was already a little slow all things considered. So it's been a month since he wrote me an email to advise that. If I had filed a contravention application, it would have required a lot more work and a lot faster response. Frankly, even if I didn't 'win' the contravention case in having the judge impose some kind of penalty as some kind of future disincentive, as a self-represented litigant I would at least have minimal costs other than time and energy. So while you may or may not be right about how a judge would view it, I do think that a frank and honest discussion about the rationale behind her withholding with her solicitor is letting her off easy compared to the alternative.

And you honestly think that not wanting to drive in the rain is a reasonable excuse for withhold the children? Really? I don't think a judge is going to see it that way, and I think you'd look like the one playing games when the children have a right to a relationship with both parents. Your wants are secondary to the children's rights, surely. If you REALLY don't want to drive in the rain and you feel it's a safety issue, then you hire a taxi to take the children. Transportation doesn't stop just because the roads are wet and it's your responsibility to ensure the orders are adhered to. For the most part I think you're a pretty sensible guy willing to dish out some uncomfortable truths about parenting, but sometimes your arguments stink of Devil's Advocate rather than what I imagine you really believe. ;)
 
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sammy01

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27 September 2015
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U'm read my post again.... I clearly stated - UNREASONABLE- not wanting to drive in the rain... So let's move on.

Solicitor can't write to you without client's approval.

You do know that if you take this to court it won't cost you as a SR. But, the OP has a good case for you to have to pay her costs if the judge determines Covid isolation rule is a reasonable excuse.

I realise we disagree - But the full and frank discussion between your ex and her solicitor about the rationale for witholding could well go something like - So you witheld the kids? Due to a belief that covid isolation was a reasoable excuse? My fair enough. Oh you offered make up time? GOOD. But the ex is still upset? Gee no pleasing some people.
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
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I read your post again and can see what you're getting at now but at the time I interpreted the 'reasonable' or 'unreasonable' judgements as following each scenario so in other words to me it sounded like "It was raining and I didn't wanna drive in the rain. Reasonable." I was just assuming that was your pattern since you ended the paragraph by talking about my ex's withholding and saying "reasonable" after. Anyway, no worries, let's move on.

My understanding of a costs order is that they are only used in fairly extreme circumstances when the claim is obviously vexatious or false and their side had to go to court unnecessarily in circumstances where they had already done all they could to ensure that the matter wasn't brought to court but you went ahead and did filed an application that was without merit anyway. I don't think that's what is happening here at all. She genuinely did withhold the children over a period of two weeks and breach the orders. So it's not like it's a false accusation. IMO the main question is whether there is a reasonable excuse for it.

I think given I've waited well over a month for that 'reasonable excuse' to be communicated to me, and my neither my ex nor her solicitor has provided one despite me having written at some length to her solicitor documenting the course of events and how my ex had numerous other options available to her that wouldn't have resulted in her needing to withhold but she chose to withhold anyway and refused to discuss it.

I perhaps need to remind you of the facts of the matter and why I think she didn't have a reasonable excuse. The main reason I'm still upset about her withholding is that it was systematic and clearly opportunistic. As soon as one justification expired or was otherwise disproven, she moved on to a new justification. This happened at least 3 times, and then her final 'game set match' justification (in your mind anyway) was quoting an obscure line in a DHHS article that said you should 'stay at home if you still have respiratory tract symptoms', but at no point in time did she ever actually demonstrate that the children HAD these symptoms or get any independent confirmation of them. She merely claimed it was true and used a doctor to write a generic letter saying "the mother told me the child has symptoms". I actually spoke to the doctor following this letter and he confirmed that he didn't see the symptoms, he effectively just wrote the letter to satisfy the mum.

So in those circumstances, and with an affidavit explaining all this in all the necessary detail, I'm pretty sure that if the justice system is remotely fair the judge would recognise that I was the one taking the steps to avoid going to court and she was the one playing power games, trying her very best to keep the children with her at all costs even when common sense would suggest there was little to no risk to public health. I gave her plenty of time to seek legal advice and respond. It was in fact her side that in put up a communication brick wall despite assurances that a response letter would be forthcoming. And despite me writing numerous follow up emails to her lawyer asking for the formal response that was promised by him, I got no further correspondence on the matter for an entire month. So if after all that, after getting nowhere in attempting to avoid court, did I file a contravention application as a last resort. In those circumstances, I can't see how I should have to pay costs. I've been the reasonable party here IMO.
 
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GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
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Oh and unless his client suddenly changed her mind and informed him that she didn't want him to write a letter to me anymore despite the fact by then that he had:

1. already had a meeting to discuss the matter
2. taken her instructions to write me a letter in response, and
3. informed me he would be doing so in the next week or so

Then I think it's clear he did (and likely still does) have her approval. 🤷‍♂️
 

Complex3

Well-Known Member
14 August 2021
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I’m going to side with Sammy here.. it comes across as you itching for a fight on a technicality and I don’t think that a judge is going to issue a contravention if you got that far. I’m not saying you’re not right to be upset that you missed time, but in the grand scheme of things you received make up time (bar 24 hours) so it might be one where you concede and let go.

I completely understand how emotive these topics can be; I’ve been separated nearly 4 years now and there is a lot of regret in how emotional some of my own responses have been; there are just some things we have to let go of and I think this might be one of those for you.
 
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sammy01

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27 September 2015
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You think she didn't have a reasonable excuse. Let's test that against the legislation
(5) A person (the respondent ) is taken to have had a reasonable excuse for contravening a parenting order to the extent to which it deals with whom a child is to spend time with in a way that resulted in a person and a child not spending time together as provided for in the order if:

(a) the respondent believed on reasonable grounds that not allowing the child and the person to spend time together was necessary to protect the health or safety of a person (including the respondent or the child); and

(b) the period during which, because of the contravention, the child and the person did not spend time together was not longer than was necessary to protect the health or safety of the person referred to in paragraph

The rule is IF you have covid you don't leave the house to "protect the health or safety of a person' ANY PERSON... Now she didnt keep the kids longer than in necessary. She offered you make up time. NICE BTW - the legislation doesn't require her to do so....

I reckon the ex told solicitor to write back, then changed her mind and told the solicitor not too.... Storm in a tea cup.
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
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Sammy, you've mis-remembered an important detail from the story. You refer to the rule being that you don't leave the house if you have Covid. Yes, but she withheld the children AFTER they were deemed to no longer have Covid. She used a DHHS loophole that said if you still have any lingering symptoms you should continue isolating. The problem is, having respiratory symptoms after your isolation period doesn't mean you still have Covid. Long Covid is a common and well documented medical condition that results in you having symptoms LONG AFTER you have recovered from the primary infection and there has never been any suggestion that you should isolate for public health reasons during that recovery. I'm quite confident my daughter no longer was infected or infectious but because she apparently had a f***ing cough (no evidence to even demonstrate that mind you, I had two video calls with the kids during that period in which they told me they'd had friends come over to play and were climbing trees, etc!), she withheld.

You're viewing her story with an overly sympathetic eye, even while I'm trying to explain to you that it was not justifiable. She knew damn well that the kids were not so unwell that they couldn't exit isolation. Given they had friends come over to play, they effectively didn't even isolate while using she was using the loophole supposedly advising them to isolate. All of this could be scrutinised by a judge if I chose to file an application. Just because you claim to have believed you were acting to protect the health and safety of 'someone', it doesn't mean the evidence when viewed in its entirety would support that claim.