So now after chasing for a further 2 months they have come back with i need to provide a stat dec to confirm my police report is truthful. This is getting so frustrating i really dont understand why they put delaying and delaying
QLD Credit Corp Chasing Debt I Never Had?
- Thread starter hazell360
- Start date
So now after chasing for a further 2 months they have come back with i need to provide a stat dec to confirm my police report is truthful. This is getting so frustrating i really dont understand why they put delaying and delaying
They are being being difficult. At some prior point I probably would have said just fix it or I will see you in court and I will go you for costs and penalties and compensation.
Up to you to decide whether you follow their ridiculous process or threaten court.
Up to you to decide whether you follow their ridiculous process or threaten court.
I know this thread is a bit old so I will keep this short and sweet, very short.
When contacted by debt collectors write to them and tell them that you will communicate with them in hard copy format only and that you will not communicate with them in any other way. If they continue to contact you then you may report them to their regulator for harassment and unconscionable conduct.
State that you will pay any financial obligation you may lawfully owe on the condition that they provide proof that the alleged debt exists and that they are required to provide:
a copy of the actual accounting that brought the account into existance;
a sworn affidavit or a hand signed invoice verifying your claim that I owe your collection agency money;
a copy of the contract signed by both parties confirming that all conditions of the contract have been fully disclosed.
provide a sworn statement, made under the penalties of perjury, stating that you have not purchased the debt from the bank you allege I owe money to. If you have purchased the debt from the bank then you agree that you have discharged the debt as your purchase of the debt has closed, finalised and settled the debt with the bank.
I require these documents be provided to me within 28 days from the date on this letter.
When contacted by debt collectors write to them and tell them that you will communicate with them in hard copy format only and that you will not communicate with them in any other way. If they continue to contact you then you may report them to their regulator for harassment and unconscionable conduct.
State that you will pay any financial obligation you may lawfully owe on the condition that they provide proof that the alleged debt exists and that they are required to provide:
a copy of the actual accounting that brought the account into existance;
a sworn affidavit or a hand signed invoice verifying your claim that I owe your collection agency money;
a copy of the contract signed by both parties confirming that all conditions of the contract have been fully disclosed.
provide a sworn statement, made under the penalties of perjury, stating that you have not purchased the debt from the bank you allege I owe money to. If you have purchased the debt from the bank then you agree that you have discharged the debt as your purchase of the debt has closed, finalised and settled the debt with the bank.
I require these documents be provided to me within 28 days from the date on this letter.
Errr, no – or at least, not quite.
You may state your preferred channel of communication, and this should be adhered to. However, if you break that and communicate via another method then the ACCC/ASIC Debt Collection Guideline stipulates the collector should not ignore that communication and should attempt contact via the same channel.
Don’t do this if there is a possibility the debt may be statute barred as it could be considered an acknowledgment of debt. Let the debt be established first. If you are legally obliged to pay it, saying you will makes no difference to its legitimacy.
They should be able to do this. However, knowing what this is or is not supposed to look like can be rather technical.
No and no. There’s no need for either of these things. Debts can take many forms, not all of which need an ‘invoice’. If it’s a judgment debt, for example, then you’re not going to get an invoice and any sworn affidavit will be going to the court for enforcement purposes.
If it’s a consumer credit contract, for example, a compliant statement of account is relevant.
In any case, ‘hand signed’ is not required and a thing of the past. For example each state, and the Commonwealth, has electronic transactions legislation which validate electronic signatures in many circumstances. A statement of account, to be compliant with the National Credit Code, does not require a signature at all.
See my above comments about ‘signatures’, for starters. They are very much starting to become a thing of the past in many respects. Contracts can be created otherwise than by way of signatures, such as by significant part performance or completing certain actions (such as logging on with a login and password). So long as the method of assent to the terms of contract are certain and observable, there’s a strong argument that the contract is valid.
Further, don’t expect that the ‘contract’ will confirm ‘all conditions are fully disclosed’. Bear in mind there are valid ways to disclose beyond simply putting words in a contract.
Aside from that, for example, If the debt is a judgment debt, you’ll get a copy of the judgment and nothing else is needed.
Completely wrong. Assignment of debts is valid and allowed under the law. What a creditor chooses to sell your debt for is irrelevant to you – you continue to owe the full amount of the debt as it stands. If they choose to sell at a discounted rate to obtain some money now rather than waiting for the time and possibility you may pay, that’s their prerogative.
Many disclosure timeframes are stipulated by law or regulator policy. For example:
- Producing a statement of account which includes information relating to more than 1 year before the date of request: 30 days allowed (s37 National Credit Code); and
- Internal Dispute Resolution guidelines pursuant to the International Standard Customer Satisfaction Guidelines for Complaint Handling in Organisations (ISO 10002:2004, MOD) provides that responses to complaints should be provided within 45 days of receiving a company. ISO 10002:2004 is required for internal dispute resolution schemes by ASIC in its regulatory guides, and by extension AFCA (the only accredited EDR provider for financial complaints in Australia).
You may state your preferred channel of communication, and this should be adhered to. However, if you break that and communicate via another method then the ACCC/ASIC Debt Collection Guideline stipulates the collector should not ignore that communication and should attempt contact via the same channel.
Don’t do this if there is a possibility the debt may be statute barred as it could be considered an acknowledgment of debt. Let the debt be established first. If you are legally obliged to pay it, saying you will makes no difference to its legitimacy.
They should be able to do this. However, knowing what this is or is not supposed to look like can be rather technical.
No and no. There’s no need for either of these things. Debts can take many forms, not all of which need an ‘invoice’. If it’s a judgment debt, for example, then you’re not going to get an invoice and any sworn affidavit will be going to the court for enforcement purposes.
If it’s a consumer credit contract, for example, a compliant statement of account is relevant.
In any case, ‘hand signed’ is not required and a thing of the past. For example each state, and the Commonwealth, has electronic transactions legislation which validate electronic signatures in many circumstances. A statement of account, to be compliant with the National Credit Code, does not require a signature at all.
See my above comments about ‘signatures’, for starters. They are very much starting to become a thing of the past in many respects. Contracts can be created otherwise than by way of signatures, such as by significant part performance or completing certain actions (such as logging on with a login and password). So long as the method of assent to the terms of contract are certain and observable, there’s a strong argument that the contract is valid.
Further, don’t expect that the ‘contract’ will confirm ‘all conditions are fully disclosed’. Bear in mind there are valid ways to disclose beyond simply putting words in a contract.
Aside from that, for example, If the debt is a judgment debt, you’ll get a copy of the judgment and nothing else is needed.
Completely wrong. Assignment of debts is valid and allowed under the law. What a creditor chooses to sell your debt for is irrelevant to you – you continue to owe the full amount of the debt as it stands. If they choose to sell at a discounted rate to obtain some money now rather than waiting for the time and possibility you may pay, that’s their prerogative.
Many disclosure timeframes are stipulated by law or regulator policy. For example:
- Producing a statement of account which includes information relating to more than 1 year before the date of request: 30 days allowed (s37 National Credit Code); and
- Internal Dispute Resolution guidelines pursuant to the International Standard Customer Satisfaction Guidelines for Complaint Handling in Organisations (ISO 10002:2004, MOD) provides that responses to complaints should be provided within 45 days of receiving a company. ISO 10002:2004 is required for internal dispute resolution schemes by ASIC in its regulatory guides, and by extension AFCA (the only accredited EDR provider for financial complaints in Australia).
Thank you for providing me with an opportunity to learn.
You may state your preferred channel of communication, and this should be adhered to. However, if you break that and communicate via another method then the ACCC/ASIC DebtCollection Guideline stipulates the collector should not ignore that communication and should attempt contact via the same channel.
Yes i am aware of that but i chose not address the issue.
"Don’t do this if there is a possibility the debt may be statute barred as it could be considered an acknowledgment of debt. Let the debt be established first. If you are legally obliged to pay it, saying you will makes no difference to its legitimacy." - This is correct but again i did not address it due to time.
"No and no. There’s no need for either of these things. Debts can take many forms, not all of which need an ‘invoice’. If it’s a judgment debt, for example, then you’re not going to get an invoice and any sworn affidavit will be going to the court for enforcement purposes"
The law is based on the principle that he who accuses must prove their claim. Yes, it cannot become a judgment debt until the court has heard the application for a judgment. Untll then they have an obligation to prove their claim to the alleged borrower."
If they are not prepared to provide proof of claim to the borrower what right can they claim to have on the borrower? Further; how can a court grant a judgment debt when the Collector has refused to provide proof of claim to the alleged debtor? How can any such grant be fair and just.
I am aware however from anecdotal evidence that DCs are getting their judgments just for the asking even after refusing to provide proof of claim to the alleged debtor. Does the legal profession endorse such behaviour by the courts?
i did not not address stat barred but yes you are correct.
"Completely wrong. Assignment of debts is valid and allowed under the law. What a creditor chooses to sell your debt for is irrelevant to you – you continue to owe the full amount of the debt as it stands. If they choose to sell at a discounted rate to obtain some money now rather than waiting for the time and possibility you may pay, that’s their prerogative."
"This is maybe what the Parliament intended when they wrote this clause but there is no reason those words cannot be interpreted as stated." When the bank sells the debt they are out of the whole deal. They no longer have any claim on the debtor. Its then between the alleged debtor and the DC. If the DC is a debt buyer then every single cent they get from the debtor will go nowhere other than in the DC's pocket. Not one single cent will go back to the bank so why should the debtor pay the DC anything when they have no contract with them. (but yes I am aware that the law enables this to be done - I cant think of the term used, sorry) but so much for fair and just laws.
"In any case, ‘hand signed’ is not required and a thing of the past. For example each state, and the Commonwealth, has electronic transactions legislation which validate electronic signatures in many circumstances. A statement of account, to be compliant with the National Credit Code, does not require a signature at all."
agreed - I think everyone is aware of this and concerned about this very worrying trend. This is may be legal but is it lawful and more importantly is it fair and just law for consumers? This is issue not other arguments. Full Disclosure is easily avoided from the merchants perspective under such a regime. The consumer has only one chance to read and hopefully, print out the contract. From what I understand, its all but impossible for a consumer to obtain a written copy of the "agreement" from the banks after the time they have clicked the 'yes' button.
"Further, don’t expect that the ‘contract’ will confirm ‘all conditions are fully disclosed’ (my argument exactly). Bear in mind there are valid ways to disclose beyond simply putting words in a contract."
Why do banks etc not choose to put full disclosure words into the contract.? What is it the banks etc are intending to hide or to have scope to withhold from the consumer?? Do consumers have the same rights to only partly disclose relevant information or to provide it to the bank after they have got the loan?
IMO, we have a legal system but thats not necessarily the same thing as a justice system.
thanks
You may state your preferred channel of communication, and this should be adhered to. However, if you break that and communicate via another method then the ACCC/ASIC DebtCollection Guideline stipulates the collector should not ignore that communication and should attempt contact via the same channel.
Yes i am aware of that but i chose not address the issue.
"Don’t do this if there is a possibility the debt may be statute barred as it could be considered an acknowledgment of debt. Let the debt be established first. If you are legally obliged to pay it, saying you will makes no difference to its legitimacy." - This is correct but again i did not address it due to time.
"No and no. There’s no need for either of these things. Debts can take many forms, not all of which need an ‘invoice’. If it’s a judgment debt, for example, then you’re not going to get an invoice and any sworn affidavit will be going to the court for enforcement purposes"
The law is based on the principle that he who accuses must prove their claim. Yes, it cannot become a judgment debt until the court has heard the application for a judgment. Untll then they have an obligation to prove their claim to the alleged borrower."
If they are not prepared to provide proof of claim to the borrower what right can they claim to have on the borrower? Further; how can a court grant a judgment debt when the Collector has refused to provide proof of claim to the alleged debtor? How can any such grant be fair and just.
I am aware however from anecdotal evidence that DCs are getting their judgments just for the asking even after refusing to provide proof of claim to the alleged debtor. Does the legal profession endorse such behaviour by the courts?
i did not not address stat barred but yes you are correct.
"Completely wrong. Assignment of debts is valid and allowed under the law. What a creditor chooses to sell your debt for is irrelevant to you – you continue to owe the full amount of the debt as it stands. If they choose to sell at a discounted rate to obtain some money now rather than waiting for the time and possibility you may pay, that’s their prerogative."
"This is maybe what the Parliament intended when they wrote this clause but there is no reason those words cannot be interpreted as stated." When the bank sells the debt they are out of the whole deal. They no longer have any claim on the debtor. Its then between the alleged debtor and the DC. If the DC is a debt buyer then every single cent they get from the debtor will go nowhere other than in the DC's pocket. Not one single cent will go back to the bank so why should the debtor pay the DC anything when they have no contract with them. (but yes I am aware that the law enables this to be done - I cant think of the term used, sorry) but so much for fair and just laws.
"In any case, ‘hand signed’ is not required and a thing of the past. For example each state, and the Commonwealth, has electronic transactions legislation which validate electronic signatures in many circumstances. A statement of account, to be compliant with the National Credit Code, does not require a signature at all."
agreed - I think everyone is aware of this and concerned about this very worrying trend. This is may be legal but is it lawful and more importantly is it fair and just law for consumers? This is issue not other arguments. Full Disclosure is easily avoided from the merchants perspective under such a regime. The consumer has only one chance to read and hopefully, print out the contract. From what I understand, its all but impossible for a consumer to obtain a written copy of the "agreement" from the banks after the time they have clicked the 'yes' button.
"Further, don’t expect that the ‘contract’ will confirm ‘all conditions are fully disclosed’ (my argument exactly). Bear in mind there are valid ways to disclose beyond simply putting words in a contract."
Why do banks etc not choose to put full disclosure words into the contract.? What is it the banks etc are intending to hide or to have scope to withhold from the consumer?? Do consumers have the same rights to only partly disclose relevant information or to provide it to the bank after they have got the loan?
IMO, we have a legal system but thats not necessarily the same thing as a justice system.
thanks
Here’s your issue, I think. You can’t pick and choose some bits of the law and ignore the other relevant parts. What is ‘fair and just’ is attempted to be applied to society overall, not one person in particular.
While you may not agree with what the law provides, and I’ll freely admit there are aspects that I don’t agree with, it is the law and we’re obliged to abide by it. Advocating that people should require something that is not supported by legal requirement, and saying that you choose not to address that issue is dangerous. People will not know what you choose to ignore, and if they follow your suggestions then they will likely get blindsided.
my reference to a letter in a previous post requiring proof of claim is a form of cease and desist letter. Suggest you just add:
"I require you to provide the proof of claim documentation previously detailed. Your failure to provide any or adequate proof of claim evidence, will be taken as your admission that you are unable to provide evidence of proof of claim and therefore you are likely to be guilty of harassment and or unconscionable conduct and I may seek damages from you for the harm caused.
There is so much wrong with that passage I don't have the time to plot an entry point...
Friend of mine had a alleged $7500 debt with Pionner Credit. BUT WE BELIEVED THE DEBT WAS STATURE BARED FROM THE START
Apparently for a Credit Card sometimes back. He started getting phone call from them to them asking re-payment of the debt and offering payment plan all over the phone of course.
We requested in writting the following:
1. A copy of the relevant and lawful Terms and Conditions;
2. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Credit Agreement with your organisation;
3. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of any account statements from the date of signature of the alleged contract to this date.
4. Details of how the amount of the alleged debt was calculated.
5. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the deed of assignment.
Why true and certified copy ? Because those companies has no issue creating document to make you believe.
We also requested that all communication be made by letter addressed to a PO BOX.
My knowledge on this is coming from many many sources.
First of All you should read this:
Dealing with debt collectors: your rights & responsibilities
A nice beginning but not really helpful - Pretend you have not read this...
BUT THE REAL DEAL IS HERE.... THIS DEBT COLLECTOR GUIDELINE:
https://download.asic.gov.au/media/3549402/rg96-published-29-february-2016.pdf
PLEASE READ THIS - I CANNOT STRESS YOU ENOUGH This is What they can do and not do. How they can behave.
What is a stature bared debt ? An old debt. 6 years since LAST payment (each payment is an acknowledgement of the debt) in all states - 3 years in the NT
Statute-barred debts | The Law Handbook
Do you have to pay an old debt ?
Do I have to pay an old debt? - Consumer Action Legal Help
You will find on this page a template to request the proof of the debt - What we have done in our first letter with other words.
ASIC has issue a paper about Stature barred Debt following Collection House Ltd v Taylor [2004] VSC 49
https://download.asic.gov.au/media/1347476/statute_barred_debts_report.pdf
Now in regard of the document you may request for them prove they claim over you... THE FACT THAT YOU OWN THEM MONEY.
It's all in their guidelines... 11. Providing information and documents
Apparently for a Credit Card sometimes back. He started getting phone call from them to them asking re-payment of the debt and offering payment plan all over the phone of course.
We requested in writting the following:
1. A copy of the relevant and lawful Terms and Conditions;
2. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Credit Agreement with your organisation;
3. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of any account statements from the date of signature of the alleged contract to this date.
4. Details of how the amount of the alleged debt was calculated.
5. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the deed of assignment.
Why true and certified copy ? Because those companies has no issue creating document to make you believe.
We also requested that all communication be made by letter addressed to a PO BOX.
- A person presenting himself as a "bailiff" but in reality a commercial agent (from his business card) came to my work place and residence looking for this person.
- He ask me 3 times my name and I refused to gave me. He ask me if I was the person he was looking for and I refused to answer.
- I proposed the bailiff a $10000 contract to help him to find this person or to pass on a message to this person.
- Since he refused I ask this person to remove himself from my property - He did as he had no right to remain on the property once his implied right of access or invitation has be revoked.
- I call back him back to know if he was at his office and meet him in the city to served him with a tresspass notice. HE WAS NOT HAPPY
- The next saturday a call from a lady pretexting to be from an other company called. By the time she was talking I reverse the number and find she work with the commercial agent. Ask who contracted them. Told them that I had no contract with them and therefore could not discuss with them but a $10000 contract was on the table. She decline.
- Call the firm that contracted them - a laywer debt collector in sydney - and gave them a rant. This firm told me that they do sometimes contract this company but not for any current case.
- Two weeks after we received a letter from a law firm in Perth. Called the firm and ask about their letter. told them that we had no contract with Pioneer Credit, that we do not want any contract with them, that the debt was statute bared debt, that Pionner Credit did not provide document requested as their obligation and if they want to take the matter to court, we will be happy to apply for a Subpoena in matter to obtain the requested documents.
- At this point the lawyer ask me if I was a laywer and I invite him to pursued the court process so he can found out. That at the end of the day I did not have to provide any information not to answer his question.
- He hang up on me.
- Then Pionner Credit offer to match $ for $ on the debt.... Giving a 50% discount on the original amount. - At this stage we have sent 3 letters already (not registered when they should have)
- They call one more time where I basically call the Pionner Credit a lot little name all the time to the point he hang up on me after telling me that the conversation was recorded.....
- IT HAS BEEN ALMOST A YEAR NOW AND NOTHING. - My friend still have to ask a credit score. We will follow up.
My knowledge on this is coming from many many sources.
First of All you should read this:
Dealing with debt collectors: your rights & responsibilities
A nice beginning but not really helpful - Pretend you have not read this...
BUT THE REAL DEAL IS HERE.... THIS DEBT COLLECTOR GUIDELINE:
https://download.asic.gov.au/media/3549402/rg96-published-29-february-2016.pdf
PLEASE READ THIS - I CANNOT STRESS YOU ENOUGH This is What they can do and not do. How they can behave.
What is a stature bared debt ? An old debt. 6 years since LAST payment (each payment is an acknowledgement of the debt) in all states - 3 years in the NT
Statute-barred debts | The Law Handbook
Do you have to pay an old debt ?
Do I have to pay an old debt? - Consumer Action Legal Help
You will find on this page a template to request the proof of the debt - What we have done in our first letter with other words.
ASIC has issue a paper about Stature barred Debt following Collection House Ltd v Taylor [2004] VSC 49
https://download.asic.gov.au/media/1347476/statute_barred_debts_report.pdf
Now in regard of the document you may request for them prove they claim over you... THE FACT THAT YOU OWN THEM MONEY.
It's all in their guidelines... 11. Providing information and documents
If they cannot supply documents
DO NOT PROCEED PAYMENT - DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEBT IN WRITING
DO NOT PROCEED PAYMENT - DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEBT IN WRITING
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