NSW Will Family Court Give Unsupervised Visitation to Alcoholic Father?

[Andrea Duncan]

I need an idea of how the family court will see this issue.

My ex-husband is a functioning alcoholic. When he's drinking, he's abusive. When he's not drinking, he's paranoid, delusional and has often discussed suicide. He drinks steadily during the week and frequently binge drinks on weekends. He's very good at avoiding being caught under the influence at work but he has had one DUI.

When our son was born, he became even worse and I eventually left when the baby was a month old. I decided it was in the best interests of my son not to grow up in that environment. I initially tried to maintain contact with my husband for our son's sake. I took him to visit on a regular basis but my husband would use these visits to initiate arguments and became verbally abusive.

I contacted a solicitor and offered him supervised visits with my parents in attendance, he refused and didn't see our son for 10 months, while constantly sending me abusive messages and demanding i bring our son to see him (over an hour's drive).

We tried mediation but he would only accept unsupervised visitation. I refused as I don't think our son is safe with him alone. I think there is a real risk he would attempt suicide.

We have been to family court where he denied any alcohol abuse and said I had denied him visitation with his son out of spite (contrary to evidence in letters to him from my solicitor). They ordered a CDT test which he initially failed (3.4). He missed follow up weekly tests but has had two more over approx 7 weeks. Both tests have come back under the reference (2.2) at 1.8 and 1.5 respectively.

In the meantime he has been seeing our son under supervision, the magistrate advised him to accept the offer that had been made from the beginning. We go back to court this week and I'm terrified they will give him unsupervised access because the subsequent tests show he's cutting back on alcohol.

I know from long experience that he never stops drinking for long and when he doesn't drink, he's actually more volatile and unpredictable. I genuinely fear he will harm our son in revenge. Surely, the courts are fully aware that a chronic alcoholic cannot be cured overnight?

I've suggested that he attended alcohol rehabilitation and I've strongly suggested that he participate in a detox program where his cutting back on alcohol can be monitored safely. The last time I saw him, he was visibly shaking, he was argumentative and short tempered.

 

[sammy01]

The courts will do what they will do. As far as access - well, his test result are positive and show evidence of a decline in alcohol use. So you should be celebrating...

So here is something you're not gonna like, but something you are going to have to deal with: you don't get to make suggestions. So you can suggest rehab, but unless the court orders, it then it won't happen unless he wants it to happen.

Oh and despite initially refusing supervised visits, he is now accepting them. Seems to me like he is doing everything he can to be actively involved in the child's life - meanwhile you keep putting up further obstacles...

Now as far as your concerns that he might do something to the child in revenge, maybe you need to get yourself some counselling. You have mentioned that he is paranoid and delusional. I understand the stress of these situations can cause us to think the worst.

Maybe he is a good bloke who wants to be a good dad, but you can't see that because of the emotional stress this has caused you...

You're not gonna like this either - You risk appearing like a vindictive ex who is doing everything she can to stop him seeing his kid. You don't want that.

 

[Complex16]

I would like to think that when you have real concerns such as this that the court will see it too. I'm only at the beginning of the process though so have no insight into how the court will view it I'm afraid.

As a mother of a small child who has very real fears regarding his father also, I can sympathise with your situation. I know what it's like... I also know how unkind the response above can seem. I am in regular therapy myself to help deal with everything that I endured by my son's father. Despite this, the threats of harming/killing both you and your child will never leave you and I don't believe that someone simply suggesting counselling to you is in any way helpful. If anything, it's quite condescending and is representative in a lot of ways of what is wrong in the current system.

A woman's new partner was just hilled in Brisbane this week by her ex who had a current DVO against him. There's something horribly wrong with that... Labelling someone a vindictive ex is a cop out. You should be able to raise your concerns without being labelled as such. And if you have evidence then it should be assessed on that evidence.

 

[Andrea Duncan]

The courts will do what they will do. As far as access - well, his test result are positive and show evidence of a decline in alcohol use. So you should be celebrating...

So here is something you're not gonna like, but something you are going to have to deal with: you don't get to make suggestions. So you can suggest rehab, but unless the court orders, it then it won't happen unless he wants it to happen.

Oh and despite initially refusing supervised visits, he is now accepting them. Seems to me like he is doing everything he can to be actively involved in the child's life - meanwhile you keep putting up further obstacles...

Now as far as your concerns that he might do something to the child in revenge, maybe you need to get yourself some counselling. You have mentioned that he is paranoid and delusional. I understand the stress of these situations can cause us to think the worst.

Maybe he is a good bloke who wants to be a good dad, but you can't see that because of the emotional stress this has caused you...

You're not gonna like this either - You risk appearing like a vindictive ex who is doing everything she can to stop him seeing his kid. You don't want that.

Actually I've done everything possible to get him to see his son. I travelled back and forth for weeks and endured his abuse while I was there because I thought he needed to bond and I didn't want to be seen as the one that disrupted that by leaving. He refused to come here because my parents would be here, no control you see.

I've been in counselling, and we've been to mediation - that was stopped because he became verbally abusing during the sessions.

I'm not putting up obstacles, I'm trying to make it as safe as possible for my son. I don't want to look back on some tragedy down the line and kick myself for not being cautious enough.

 

[Andrea Duncan]

I would like to think that when you have real concerns such as this that the court will see it too. I'm only at the beginning of the process though so have no insight into how the court will view it I'm afraid.

As a mother of a small child who has very real fears regarding his father also, I can sympathise with your situation. I know what it's like... I also know how unkind the response above can seem. I am in regular therapy myself to help deal with everything that I endured by my son's father. Despite this, the threats of harming/killing both you and your child will never leave you and I don't believe that someone simply suggesting counselling to you is in any way helpful. If anything, it's quite condescending and is representative in a lot of ways of what is wrong in the current system.

A woman's new partner was just hilled in Brisbane this week by her ex who had a current DVO against him. There's something horribly wrong with that... Labelling someone a vindictive ex is a cop out. You should be able to raise your concerns without being labelled as such. And if you have evidence then it should be assessed on that evidence.

I think the safety of my child should be paramount. The fact that he's messaged me about suicide on two occasions should be the biggest red flag for not getting unsupervised access. When you read his messages as a string, he goes back and forth from being reasonable and conciliatory to swearing and threatening, but there is an underlying thread of no responsibility and constant anger at me for leaving him. He blames me for his drinking (his DUI was long before we met) and says things like "I should just top myself then you would be happy".

I've known him for 9 years, nobody knows his real character better than me and I'm scared.

 

[Andrea Duncan]

The courts will do what they will do. As far as access - well, his test result are positive and show evidence of a decline in alcohol use. So you should be celebrating...

So here is something you're not gonna like, but something you are going to have to deal with: you don't get to make suggestions. So you can suggest rehab, but unless the court orders, it then it won't happen unless he wants it to happen.

Oh and despite initially refusing supervised visits, he is now accepting them. Seems to me like he is doing everything he can to be actively involved in the child's life - meanwhile you keep putting up further obstacles...

Now as far as your concerns that he might do something to the child in revenge, maybe you need to get yourself some counselling. You have mentioned that he is paranoid and delusional. I understand the stress of these situations can cause us to think the worst.

Maybe he is a good bloke who wants to be a good dad, but you can't see that because of the emotional stress this has caused you...

You're not gonna like this either - You risk appearing like a vindictive ex who is doing everything she can to stop him seeing his kid. You don't want that.

And I'm not celebrating his low test results, because I think he manipulated the time so as to be tested when the levels would be at their lowest. I know from a friend that the day after the second test was done, he went on a bender then avoided testing for nearly two weeks. He's in no way "cured"

 

[sammy01]

Ok so - help me out, Have you moved away from the former residence? Seems so. That being the case doing the travel will look good in court. But, let me be honest - both you and Complex16 run the risk of being accused of either playing the victim or failing to foster a relationship with the other parent.

Oh and Complex 16 - nothing I wrote was unkind... People come here looking for help; they don't have to like it, but I respectfully think you wanna think through your approach.

So to help you understand my perspective - I am a male, my ex took an AVO against me, made lot of accusations about me breaching the AVO. Refused me access to the kids, accused me of being an alcoholic, too. Claimed to live in fear of her life, etc, etc.

Well, from the time the youngest child was 5, the kids have lived with me and spend time with their mum for about 8 weeks a year.

So Complex - yes, there are cases like the one you mentioned, where tragically people have been murdered and that is all very tragic and it make the news. Now how many predominantly fathers, commit suicide because they can't see their kids and can't afford to make an application through family law? Each of those suicides is equally tragic, but no one wants to talk about them. So I really don't see your point.

But the courts are not gonna be interested in someone saying they don't want their kid to go with the other parent because of a feeling or a concern and evidence of such things isn't exactly easy to come by...

Oh, and it isn't condescending to suggest counselling. My counsellor said I had symptoms that mirrored PTSD as a result of the trauma of my situation. Counselling helped me learn to deal with lot of it and frankly saying that simply suggested counselling ignores the fact that it was only 1 of many suggestions I made.

So guess what - unless there is a track record. Substantial confirmed rock solid evidence such as Doc's reports, and Doc's interventions in the child's life because of the father and that Doc's has established there is a high risk, then great you have evidence. If you don't, then you have hearsay and that isn't much good in court..

Now I have to tell you, my end result is far from ideal. Mum packed up and left because things were not going her way. I would have rather had 50/50 or something similar, but mum wasn't interested in anything but her way.

Now my perspective is different from yours because my experiences are distinctly different. But I think my perspective is worth you thinking about and it is not written to be 'unkind'

 

[Complex16]

I think the safety of my child should be paramount. The fact that he's messaged me about suicide on two occasions should be the biggest red flag for not getting unsupervised access. When you read his messages as a string, he goes back and forth from being reasonable and conciliatory to swearing and threatening, but there is an underlying thread of no responsibility and constant anger at me for leaving him. He blames me for his drinking (his DUI was long before we met) and says things like "I should just top myself then you would be happy".

I've known him for 9 years, nobody knows his real character better than me and I'm scared.

Do we have the same ex? :-(

 

[Complex16]

I think the safety of my child should be paramount. The fact that he's messaged me about suicide on two occasions should be the biggest red flag for not getting unsupervised access. When you read his messages as a string, he goes back and forth from being reasonable and conciliatory to swearing and threatening, but there is an underlying thread of no responsibility and constant anger at me for leaving him. He blames me for his drinking (his DUI was long before we met) and says things like "I should just top myself then you would be happy".

I've known him for 9 years, nobody knows his real character better than me and I'm scared.

I had a mediator tell me at the beginning of a session that I "needed to understand that I was there to come to a favourable agreement regarding visitation with the father". I interrupted her and said "actually no, preventing further abuse of my son is of paramount importance and the benefit of my son maintaining a relationship with his father becomes secondary to that".

My opinion for what it's worth is don't be bullied into agreeing to or doing something you're not comfortable with. You're all your child has so fight the good fight... I have to have faith that someone, somewhere, will listen

 

[Andrea Duncan]

Ok so - help me out, Have you moved away from the former residence? Seems so. That being the case doing the travel will look good in court. But, let me be honest - both you and Complex16 run the risk of being accused of either playing the victim or failing to foster a relationship with the other parent.

Oh and Complex 16 - nothing I wrote was unkind... People come here looking for help; they don't have to like it, but I respectfully think you wanna think through your approach.

So to help you understand my perspective - I am a male, my ex took an AVO against me, made lot of accusations about me breaching the AVO. Refused me access to the kids, accused me of being an alcoholic, too. Claimed to live in fear of her life, etc, etc.

Well, from the time the youngest child was 5, the kids have lived with me and spend time with their mum for about 8 weeks a year.

So Complex - yes, there are cases like the one you mentioned, where tragically people have been murdered and that is all very tragic and it make the news. Now how many predominantly fathers, commit suicide because they can't see their kids and can't afford to make an application through family law? Each of those suicides is equally tragic, but no one wants to talk about them. So I really don't see your point.

But the courts are not gonna be interested in someone saying they don't want their kid to go with the other parent because of a feeling or a concern and evidence of such things isn't exactly easy to come by...

Oh, and it isn't condescending to suggest counselling. My counsellor said I had symptoms that mirrored PTSD as a result of the trauma of my situation. Counselling helped me learn to deal with lot of it and frankly saying that simply suggested counselling ignores the fact that it was only 1 of many suggestions I made.

So guess what - unless there is a track record. Substantial confirmed rock solid evidence such as Doc's reports, and Doc's interventions in the child's life because of the father and that Doc's has established there is a high risk, then great you have evidence. If you don't, then you have hearsay and that isn't much good in court..

Now I have to tell you, my end result is far from ideal. Mum packed up and left because things were not going her way. I would have rather had 50/50 or something similar, but mum wasn't interested in anything but her way.

Now my perspective is different from yours because my experiences are distinctly different. But I think my perspective is worth you thinking about and it is not written to be 'unkind'

I appreciate your perspective and I understand where you're coming from and I do appreciate your input.

My situation is that I chose not to continue the fight once I had a child. I realised that it was a toxic environment and unlike a lot of women, I realised it was never going to work and was just going to hurt my son.

I have no objections to my husband seeing his son under supervision, I just want to make sure he's safe. If my husband is serious about wanting to see his son, I would think he would want to get off the booze. Alcoholics rarely succeed by going cold turkey without some kind of help and chronic alcoholics like him can actually suffer some serious side effects if they just stop - the DT's.