NSW No Stopping sign not present when we parked at 2P streetside sign but has appeared in revenuensw photos as a very slanted sign on top of the 2P sign

[Mr TC]

My wife drove our family to eat at about 5:35pm near Star City Casino on 16 May. Both of us looked at the 2P sign that was outside the restaurant before we decided to park there as we could only see 2P till 6am-6pm. So we only paid to 6pm & thought we can continue to park there unrestricted afterward. After our meal, my wife threw away the parking receipt when we got back to the car to get something for one of the kids & we continued to hang around the area to take photos & eat in the casino. We got back at 7:30pm & my wife noticed a $272 parking penalty notice (time stated was 7:20pm) on our windscreen, as well as several other cars' windscreens behind & in front of our car (I wish we took photos of those cars).

Anyway today I just reviewed the Revenue NSW photos of our car on their website & as you can see below, one of these photos of our car parked there depicts the 2P sign next to it, that we relied upon. It has a VERY dodgy, slanted No Stopping sign above it, which leads me to think that somehow the sign had not been there for whatever reason when we parked, but somehow has been wedged onto the 2P sign at some point between 6-7:20pm. They also took a photo of another 2P sign around 15 metres in front of our car that had a straight undamaged No Stopping Sign above it, as well as photos of our car dashboard which didn't have the parking receipt on it (thanks to my wife!)

I rang the City of Sydney council today & was advised I can send them an email enquiring about the street signage & what its current state is, & if they have a record of any work done or needing to be done to this sign & if so, when this was requested. They said i can't talk to any parking officers involved, I have to go through RevenueNSW who will investigate for me. I asked them about CCTV footage. They said I can look at their website to see if the area is covered & ask the police for footage to see what might have happened. However I called their Street Safety Camera team after this & was told that is not possible as footage is reserved only for crimes to people, not for checking what happened to a parking sign. The person suggested I ask one of the shops near the sign if they have any footage of what might have happened.

Anyway what do you think our chances are here in pursuing this matter further? We both looked carefully at the 2P sign befroe we parked there, absolutely NO No Stopping sign was there when we parked, otherwise we would obviously not have stayed there after 6pm. I know Revenue NSW is very strict & hardly ever gives any waivers or leniency wheareas at court there is ususaly either a complete or partial waiver (partial is not worth it due to the court fees, victims levy etc). Should I ask them to look into why so many other cars were also booked? Or anything else if I request a review? Or should I just take this to court on behalf of my wife, or is all this just going to be a waste of time?

 

[Docupedia]

To my mind that sign is clearly not attached. However, the one slightly down the street clearly is, and visible from the car's position. I'd try for the review, but I'm not sure you'll get the response you want. You could be lucky.

 

[sammy01]

YOu reckon someone put it there after you parked? BUT there is another sign visible just down the road. I think you've got nothing as far as defending this one goes. Especially given the slightly dodgy one is not concealled, just poorly attached.

 

[Mr TC]

To my mind that sign is clearly not attached. However, the one slightly down the street clearly is, and visible from the car's position. I'd try for the review, but I'm not sure you'll get the response you want. You could be lucky.

I tried to get footage what might have happened with the sign between when we parked there at 5:20pm & when the offence was recorded at 7:20pm. The building outside has a camera there. Unfortunately the building security said it is not angled out toward the street so the sign area is not captured. It is angled toward their building.

After asking the Council for information, they emailed back that they received no evidence of any maintenance on the sign to date, even though I have taken photos a week ago (I tried to attach them to this reply but says file size too big even though they range from 1-2MB each) that show it has been fixed up & straightened with new looking shiny metal bands. They could not explain why the sign on the night of the penalty notice, was originally lower down & much more slanted. I asked if they can speak to the parking officers (though I suspect if they are on commissions & did something dodgy they will cover it up). I also asked them for information how many cars were booked in that same timeframe. To both my questions they replied I have to go via RevenueNSW review request, or apply for the Council to gather the public information I need, which may incur some costs. In my experience getting any leniency or even a decent review from RevenueNSW is like getting blood out of a stone.

So is it worth going the route of gathering information from Council such as how much revenue was raised that night from all the cars that were booked (the Council said they have received no complaints from anyone regarding any other penalty notices issues at the time I was booked date) and how much did the parking officers get from commissions earned? And compare them with the previous 3 & next 3 incidences of fines issued to cars disobeying that same sign? Would this show a judge, if the revenue on the night I was there was markedly higher than previous & next occurences of the same offence, that there is an unusually high rate of disobedience to the sign on that night which would show that the other parkers also were likely not to have been able to see a No Stopping sign related to the 2P sign, just like us?

The best chance seems to be if the parking officers admit that there was an issue with the sign needing to be placed back above the 2P sign. Given I hear they earn commissions, even if the sign was say fallen on the street somewhere & they placed it back sometime between 5:20 and 7:20pm, I guess the odds of them being honest about it is close to zero...

If this goes to court, what would be the best argument we could give the judge if the parking officers maintain the line that all they saw was the photo they took at 7:20pm? And would the judge take into consideration that the sign has been fixed up since then (in my latest photos, the '6pm to 6am' text on the No Stopping sign is clearly straighter & higher up now than on the night of the booking (the '6am' in my original photo in this thread is clearly very slanted & touching the top corner of the 2P sign) & the sign has been recently straightened & screwed on properly, albeit it still shows dents & a circular scratch where it looks to have somehow swung downwards before.

What sort of further information should be gathered from Council that could help our case? Is producing the very slanted vs recent straightened sign photos enough to show the judge something strange has occured to cause several prakers to be booked in that timeframe?

Is my relying on this sign or lack of the No Stopping sign being visible enough argument (considering that the parking officer also took a photo of the other No Stopping sign about 15-20 metres in front of our car - am I expected to have seen this other sign as well)?

 

[Mr TC]

YOu reckon someone put it there after you parked? BUT there is another sign visible just down the road. I think you've got nothing as far as defending this one goes. Especially given the slightly dodgy one is not concealled, just poorly attached.

After asking the Council for information, they emailed back that they received no evidence of any maintenance on the sign to date, even though I have taken photos a week ago (I tried to attach them to this reply but says file size too big even though they range from 1-2MB each) that show it has been fixed up & straightened with new looking shiny metal bands. They could not explain why the sign on the night of the penalty notice, was originally lower down & much more slanted. I asked if they can speak to the parking officers (though I suspect if they are on commissions & did something dodgy they will cover it up). I also asked them for information how many cars were booked in that same timeframe. To both my questions they replied I have to go via RevenueNSW review request, or apply for the Council to gather the public information I need, which may incur some costs. In my experience getting any leniency or even a decent review from RevenueNSW is like getting blood out of a stone.

So is it worth going the route of gathering information from Council such as how much revenue was raised that night from all the cars that were booked (the Council said they have received no complaints from anyone regarding any other penalty notices issues at the time I was booked date) and how much did the parking officers get from commissions earned? And compare them with the previous 3 & next 3 incidences of fines issued to cars disobeying that same sign? Would this show a judge, if the revenue on the night I was there was markedly higher than previous & next occurences of the same offence, that there is an unusually high rate of disobedience to the sign on that night which would show that the other parkers also were likely not to have been able to see a No Stopping sign related to the 2P sign, just like us?

The best chance seems to be if the parking officers admit that there was an issue with the sign needing to be placed back above the 2P sign. Given I hear they earn commissions, even if the sign was say fallen on the street somewhere & they placed it back sometime between 5:20 and 7:20pm, I guess the odds of them being honest about it is close to zero...

If this goes to court, what would be the best argument we could give the judge if the parking officers maintain the line that all they saw was the photo they took at 7:20pm? And would the judge take into consideration that the sign has been fixed up since then (in my latest photos, the '6pm to 6am' text on the No Stopping sign is clearly straighter & higher up now than on the night of the booking (the '6am' in my original photo in this thread is clearly very slanted & touching the top corner of the 2P sign) & the sign has been recently straightened & screwed on properly, albeit it still shows dents & a circular scratch where it looks to have somehow swung downwards before.

What sort of further information should be gathered from Council that could help our case? Is producing the very slanted vs recent straightened sign photos enough to show the judge something strange has occured to cause several prakers to be booked in that timeframe?

Is my relying on this sign or lack of the No Stopping sign being visible enough argument (considering that the parking officer also took a photo of the other No Stopping sign about 15-20 metres in front of our car - am I expected to have seen this other sign as well)?