NSW General Opinions on Applying for Family Court Orders?

[Groovecow]

Hi all, it's been a while since my last post! This is NSW if that helps.

I'm just hoping for some general opinions for questions I have. It's not where I wanted to be heading, but there have been some serious enough (for me) breaches of our family court orders made approx 1 1/2 years ago.

I'm hoping to file and represent myself, and also vary the orders to have more clarity, I believe I meet the requirements for this (the means test). In trying to keep this brief, I'll outline the questions below.

1. Mediation has not worked and I will be applying for a Section 60i. Where exactly does this fit into the new applications? Both to vary the orders and the contravention?

2. From what I understand, this has to do with an Affidavit – Non-Filing of Family Dispute Resolution Certificate?

This is the form I'm most confused about, is it simply another affidavit form? I can't see a place to use the Section 60i, is it separate!? Do I need this form if I have the Section 60i?

3. With the contraventions application, there is not a large space for breaches, of which there has been multiple (it hasn't been until the last month that serious breaches have occurred, i.e.: loss of contact). Do I outline the others in my supporting affidavit? (There is around 60 of these, most relating to phone calls).

4. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), I need an affidavit to change the orders? Is that a separate affidavit to the contravention affidavit?


Hah! Typing that out it seems like a bit of a muddle than I originally thought, but I hope I make some sense. Family court is not where I want to be, unfortunately, it seems there is little other option. It took 2 years and an exorbitant amount of money to get the orders I have. I'd rather keep these as simple as possible.

 

[sammy01]

Can you briefly summarise the nature of the breaches?

 

[Groovecow]

can you briefly summaries the nature of the breaches?

Hi Sammy, I remember you from last time! But, yes, happy to:

Orders state that there are three phone calls a week. I don't think this has happened since the orders began. There have been a couple of times where it's been the full two weeks where I haven't been able to get through. I'd wager they would be hardly worth the Courts time, but that's something that is very easy to prove or have records of. As you can imagine, it's also a bit frustrating!

It's begun to get more serious with her threatening the police, (multiple times,) for things such as me organising a haircut for my daughter, and a doctors visit when my daughter was a little ill. Both are not breaches on my part, but there is multiple things like this that I feel could unfortunately use a bit more clarity on our orders. I have these records both in text and voicemails she has left, it's pretty disconcerting to have that happen!

During my time with my daughter, my ex will ring multiple times each day, despite the phone orders being the same for her, (three times a week with specific times). I'm talking upwards of twelve calls per day :/

She has stopped me twice from collecting my daughter from school, only to relent a few hours later. Again that is a breach.

And last weekend she stopped contact fully due to another relative of hers birthday. Again, not on the orders for contact to modify for this reason, so I've missed out on a weekend with my daughter.

With all this, there is no real rhyme or reason, I'd much prefer to just get on with it and life in general. I'm not looking for revenge or to waste the courts time. I just feel a bit like I have to try and stop this from escalating.

Thanks again.

 

[sammy01]

mate waste of time... WHY? well no court order can stop a fool from being a fool.

So phone calls? amateur child psychologist here. Kids live in there here and now. Sure phone calls would be nice for you, but for the kid? I reckon let the kid deal with mum... And not feel the stress of mum listening in to your conversation.

So time to learn to have fun with this stuff. Don't answer mum's calls and tell mum you're not gonna answer her calls - that will piss her off... ha ha.
Quote 'shared parental responsibility' when she accuses you of being reckless like getting the kid's hair cut.... Laugh when she calls the cops.

So the missed weekend is all you've got that is serious, but even that is a one off.

So she is trying to piss you off. You let her see you're pissed off -= she wins.

Go to court? Hmmm here is my concern. What if Magistrate berates you for all this stuff because it's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.... What does the ex learn from this? She can get away with it.... Even if the magistrate berates HER - there won't be a fine, nope there will be stuff all consequences, so again the ex learns that she can push the boundaries.

So what to do?
1. Nothing... Tough pill to swallow, but probably the best option.
2. Write to her explaining you want a make up weekend and give her three dates - let her know that if she doesn't get back to you, then you'll assume it will be the first of the 3 dates.. But realise she might screw you over somehow, just to remind you that she can.... So hence my thinking about option 1.

Final thought - it has taken a few yrs... I really really don't give a fcuk anymore - Makes me wait 3 hours at maccas - I read a book, go for a swim at the council pool. She keeps the nice clothes I send and returns the kids with old clothes that no longer fit? oh well take the kids shopping - they see me buying clothes and hear mum whinging. My blood pressure is back to normal but my hair is bloody grey.... Her hair is bloody grey but I can tell her blood pressure is through the roof. And I really really don't give a fcuk anymore... Zen Budda stuff.... But guess what has started to happen... Now that I really really don't give a fcuk anymore, she seems to have stopped trying to piss me off... Even called me on my birthday a few weeks back... I think once she saw that I wasn't biting when she was playing her stupid mind games, so stopped playing them...

 

[Groovecow]

mate waste of time... WHY? well no court order can stop a fool from being a fool.

So phone calls? amateur child psychologist here. Kids live in there here and now. Sure phone calls would be nice for you, but for the kid? I reckon let the kid deal with mum... And not feel the stress of mum listening in to your conversation.

So time to learn to have fun with this stuff. Don't answer mum's calls and tell mum you're not gonna answer her calls - that will piss her off... ha ha.
Quote 'shared parental responsibility' when she accuses you of being reckless like getting the kid's hair cut.... Laugh when she calls the cops.

So the missed weekend is all you've got that is serious, but even that is a one off.

So she is trying to piss you off. You let her see you're pissed off -= she wins.

Go to court? Hmmm here is my concern. What if Magistrate berates you for all this stuff because it's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.... What does the ex learn from this? She can get away with it.... Even if the magistrate berates HER - there won't be a fine, nope there will be stuff all consequences, so again the ex learns that she can push the boundaries.

So what to do?
1. Nothing... Tough pill to swallow, but probably the best option.
2. Write to her explaining you want a make up weekend and give her three dates - let her know that if she doesn't get back to you, then you'll assume it will be the first of the 3 dates.. But realise she might screw you over somehow, just to remind you that she can.... So hence my thinking about option 1.

Final thought - it has taken a few yrs... I really really don't give a fcuk anymore - Makes me wait 3 hours at maccas - I read a book, go for a swim at the council pool. She keeps the nice clothes I send and returns the kids with old clothes that no longer fit? oh well take the kids shopping - they see me buying clothes and hear mum whinging. My blood pressure is back to normal but my hair is bloody grey.... Her hair is bloody grey but I can tell her blood pressure is through the roof. And I really really don't give a fcuk anymore... Zen Budda stuff.... But guess what has started to happen... Now that I really really don't give a fcuk anymore, she seems to have stopped trying to piss me off... Even called me on my birthday a few weeks back... I think once she saw that I wasn't biting when she was playing her stupid mind games, so stopped playing them...

Mate, I'm laughing because I thought I was pretty zen! (Apparently there's a whole other level). I am pretty cruisy about the whole thing, Court as you know, truly does change you as a person. I find the most stressed I get these days is over FIFA!

I can't abide by cut contact, so I guess I will see what happens at the next scheduled changeover! I wouldn't mind getting berated by the court, but I see what you're saying. While I have the clause to get a make up weekend, I can assure you it just wouldn't happen. I can certainly appreciate what you say about phonecalls and letting stuff go though.

What do you feel about changing the orders? Again, there's no chance through mediation, and some stuff does need clarifying as it was done in haste, (in a nutshell, there was a Friday deadline to avoid the final trial date on the Monday), so some stuff was missed. I don't want to waste the courts time, or vice versa, I'd be happy to let the contraventions go, I just thought they may support some of the needed change in the orders. Again nothing major, it's just the tiddly things.

At the very least, it's nice to have someone to talk to about all of this, so thank you for that!

 

[sammy01]

email - [email protected]
Happy to have a chat

 

[sammy01]

ok so you can get the orders changed, but the orders aren't the problem.... Your ex missus is the problem and you cant get that changed. So you're better off just working around what you've got. Short version, avoid court at all costs. But if you can give us some details about what the problems with the current orders are then you might get some advice.

Story time - My ex decided at one point that the standard 'or by agreement' as in drop off at 3pm or by agreement - meant that at any point in time she could decide she no longer agreed to anything and consequently I wasn't seeing the kids anymore because she no longer 'agreed'.

Ok so zen budda cpt 2. Not giving a fcuk is internal. Not legal advice her Yodda from star wars.... Not giving a fcuk is your head space. It isn't about just pretending - you really have to give up caring.... Smart man once told me the opposite of love is not hate - it is ambivalence. I'm not gonna dance on my ex's grave when she dies because that would be hateful - I'm gonna shrug my shoulders, then feel sorry for my kids because their mum died... Use the force groovecow... the force is with you.

 

[Groovecow]

Thanks for this Sammy, I think after your advice it's probably better to not persist with the contravention. Realistically there has been two overnights missed as the big contravention, is that worth it? Maybe, but it's a hell of a lot of effort! Probably better to see if it happens again, as it was a relatives birthday it may have been better for my daughter to have that time...

Probably better to play the orders to my favour to. I wouldn't mind getting some of the wording changed. A few examples being who can and cant pick and drop my daughter off, it's a little hard with my work being casual to always be there, (I work three casual jobs and ensure that I'm off 99% of the time when I have my daughter, it's just a fail safe type deal), just for the record, not a workaholic, just got lucky in the interviews I went too!

Little things like extra curricular activities, I'm happy to pay for them all, even if I wasn't able to attend, but I don't think they would take her. Our main problem is probably our locations, my ex lives 1/2 an hour away in a smaller town, so it's the travel thing. There's specific orders to that, (basically any permissions to extra curricular activities are not to be withheld), it's just little things like this.

Maybe it's time to take a deep breath, we do have a joint mediation coming up in a few months as initiated by me. Maybe with heavy focus and emphasis on what can be achieved by focusing on my daughter things would be reasonable... I mean, stranger things have happened!!

I'm laughing at your story time and the no longer agreed! Head meet desk I bet! It's almost clever, did that go any further?

I think you may need to start a Jedi school, again I thought I was making progress towards just letting little s**t go... there's some work to do. Again thank you! And thanks for the Email! I may take you up on that, talking about this instead of internalising has really helped.

 

[sammy01]

Story time cpt 2. I didn't see the kids for 2 weeks because of the 'by agreement' dispute. My solicitor wrote to her solicitor. Her solicitor wrote back confirming the orders would resume... But that cost me close to a grand and would have cost her about the same... When it hurt her financially she relented, but she was onto child support the same day she didn't facilitate access. Fun and games.

Mate once you've got an established history as in months of her not giving access - then court is the place to be... let's hope it doesn't come to that

 

[GlassHalfFull]

Only thing I could add to the discussion is that if she cuts your access one weekend, write to her and say that you are requesting that make up time be arranged so that you have two weekends in a row. If she says no, you have more grounds to make a contravention application in my opinion. Yes she shouldn't be taking away your weekend out of the blue, that clearly isn't fair. But I think the courts want you to demonstrate that you've tried to resolve the issue. It does sound like (from the mediation attempt) that you've done so... (ah, I re-read and saw that Sammy already made that suggestion). But yes, he's right, she can still choose to screw you over. You can't force her to hand over the children on a day she doesn't want to.

Yeah, Sammy is pretty zen. He's lucky enough to be out the other side of the whirlwind, along with (from memory) orders that are pretty generous. Not all of us are in that boat. I find it hard to take the approach he has though. Yes, EVENTUALLY your ex may chill out and start being nicer. Maybe. Or she may just continue to push her luck more and more over time. Something has got to give and I tend to be more in the 'fight fire with fire' school of thought. It may not necessarily work better in the short term. In fact it's probably likely to not. But I don't like the idea of being walked all over and having my cherished time with my children determined on a whim by my ex. That's not how court orders are supposed to work.

Whether it's in your best interests to file a breach, I really don't know. What I do know is that even if your ex isn't punished THIS time, if it looks like a pattern is emerging, I suspect the judge is going to be less and less impressed each time. You need to demonstrate that you've given her every opportunity to follow orders and she is incapable despite every encouragement and warning. And to demonstrate that, maybe a breach does need to be filed...