NSW Does NSW Police require radar to issue a speeding fine?

[Ekral97]

Hey guys,

I've just gotten pulled over for speeding and will be getting a fine for just over 20 km/h in the mail, I hold a P1 riders license and a P2 drivers license, and also do not have the best record (I've lost my license for a while and had one other speeding fine before that).

I was riding my motorcycle down a road I ride on at least twice a day and as such was not paying attention to my speed at all. While riding along, two police officers were, I assume, conducting a RBT on the opposite side of the road and crossed in order to flag me down and get me to pull over. They told me I was being recorded by body cam then asked me what speed I was travelling at to which I responded "I didn't check" or something along those lines. After this encounter the officer did his thing and told me I'll be receiving a fine for 20 over in the mail and that I could be on my way. They didn't get me on radar and were estimating my speed.

My question is, what would be my chances in court? Would I be able to get it waived as there is no radar? Thank you in advance for any help!

 

[DMLegal]

Hey guys,

I've just gotten pulled over for speeding and will be getting a fine for just over 20 km/h in the mail, I hold a P1 riders license and a P2 drivers license, and also do not have the best record (I've lost my license for a while and had one other speeding fine before that).

I was riding my motorcycle down a road I ride on at least twice a day and as such was not paying attention to my speed at all. While riding along, two police officers were, I assume, conducting a RBT on the opposite side of the road and crossed in order to flag me down and get me to pull over. They told me I was being recorded by body cam then asked me what speed I was travelling at to which I responded "I didn't check" or something along those lines. After this encounter the officer did his thing and told me I'll be receiving a fine for 20 over in the mail and that I could be on my way. They didn't get me on radar and were estimating my speed.

My question is, what would be my chances in court? Would I be able to get it waived as there is no radar? Thank you in advance for any help!

I have heard of this, but never actually had a Client come to me with this type of issue. In my view you could challenge it, but this is primarily because I simply don't agree that this type of evidence satisfies the basic test of beyond reasonable doubt. I think it could be relevant to charges such as reckless driving, where you are taking the manner of driving as a whole, and speed would be just one of several factors. Anyway I am ranting, in answer to your question, it wouldn't be waived for no radar. You could be acquitted because there is insufficient evidence. Indeed if their body cams show you overtaking other road users with ease, this combined with their estimation may be sufficient for the Mag to convict you. If you do go to court the fine isn't an infringement anymore, it is a conviction and will probably show on your Police Clearance (although it may not).

 

[Ekral97]

I have heard of this, but never actually had a Client come to me with this type of issue. In my view you could challenge it, but this is primarily because I simply don't agree that this type of evidence satisfies the basic test of beyond reasonable doubt. I think it could be relevant to charges such as reckless driving, where you are taking the manner of driving as a whole, and speed would be just one of several factors. Anyway I am ranting, in answer to your question, it wouldn't be waived for no radar. You could be acquitted because there is insufficient evidence. Indeed if their body cams show you overtaking other road users with ease, this combined with their estimation may be sufficient for the Mag to convict you. If you do go to court the fine isn't an infringement anymore, it is a conviction and will probably show on your Police Clearance (although it may not).

I'm not sure if they captured me on their body cams at all, they may have. It was a single lane and there was only one other car which was in front of me and I was approaching it fairly quickly but that may be a mix of them slowing down after seeing highway patrol on the other side and the fact that after they decided to waive me down, they cut that driver off which made him stop. I do not want to be disrespectful to the police officers with my posts, they think I was speeding and I don't know what speed I was traveling at, but my issue is that I'm going to be losing my license as well as extending my graduation for a further 9 months so if I have a high chance of avoiding this fine I will try to seeing as, like you mentioned there wouldn't be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Also I forgot to add that my exhaust is quite loud (honestly in this case it's not my young and stupid phase, the exhaust helps people know where I am and has probably saved my life a lot) which could add to the reason they thought I was doing quite high of a speed.

I may try my luck with that, and if the magistrate disregards my case I could maybe ask for a section 10? I understand this wouldn't seem like a big issue for many, but me being young, this is making me incredibly anxious. So I really appreciate your help man! Thank you.

 

[DMLegal]

I'm not sure if they captured me on their body cams at all, they may have. It was a single lane and there was only one other car which was in front of me and I was approaching it fairly quickly but that may be a mix of them slowing down after seeing highway patrol on the other side and the fact that after they decided to waive me down, they cut that driver off which made him stop. I do not want to be disrespectful to the police officers with my posts, they think I was speeding and I don't know what speed I was traveling at, but my issue is that I'm going to be losing my license as well as extending my graduation for a further 9 months so if I have a high chance of avoiding this fine I will try to seeing as, like you mentioned there wouldn't be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Also I forgot to add that my exhaust is quite loud (honestly in this case it's not my young and stupid phase, the exhaust helps people know where I am and has probably saved my life a lot) which could add to the reason they thought I was doing quite high of a speed.

I may try my luck with that, and if the magistrate disregards my case I could maybe ask for a section 10? I understand this wouldn't seem like a big issue for many, but me being young, this is making me incredibly anxious. So I really appreciate your help man! Thank you.

Ah right well that’s also in your favour (the lack of lack traffic). Logically, it is easier to compare speed against 10 cars than 1 car. Who’s to say that one car wasn’t going significantly under the speed limit. I wouldn’t accept the infringement in the circumstances you described, as you say, even if you were speeding, 20k/h over is quite fast, so if it couldn’t be proven I was definitely doing it I wouldn’t admit to it. You could try and negotiate with them for a lesser speed range if that will help save your licence.

Have a chat to legal aid or a solicitor if you have the money. It seems like this could significantly impact your life, so might as well challenge it if there is any chance they were wrong.

Good luck

 

[Ozwarlock67]

Let us know how you get on. Simply looking at a car or bike and guessing their speed shouldn't really be admissible in a court of law.

 

[Ekral97]

Let us know how you get on. Simply looking at a car or bike and guessing their speed shouldn't really be admissible in a court of law.

Im not very brave when it comes to courtly matters especially something such as pleading not guilty with no legal defence, so if I dont end up updating, most likely I didnt go through with it, but if I go through with it ill definitely update you guys!

 

[DMLegal]

Im not very brave when it comes to courtly matters especially something such as pleading not guilty with no legal defence, so if I dont end up updating, most likely I didnt go through with it, but if I go through with it ill definitely update you guys!

No worries, not sure if you mean 'legal defence' as in legal representation, or as in grounds for a defence. If you mean you don't have grounds for a defence, you actually have a fairly strong defence. You would simply say to the Magistrate that the Prosecution have failed to discharge their burden to prove the offence beyond reasonable doubt.

Either way hopefully it all works out okay for you.

 

[Dgraham62]

Hi, just a thought, are traffic offenses held in a criminal or civil court? as I understand it, these are the only two courts we have. also, I have heard that if you ask a magistrate this question, they have said it is a quasi-criminal offence, but we don't have a quasi-criminal court.