QLD Conflicting coercive control laws

[Bananatree]

Good morning,

We have recently finally finished extremely protracted family court proceedings with final orders issued. I am just querying the legality of one order that was included if it is possible to get opinions on such.

Of note I am the new partner and we have been married for many years with multiple children of our own relationship. During the proceedings I was not able to be in the court room or have personal legal representation and I was advised that the children of our relationship's needs and mine were not allowed to be mentioned as the proceedings were solely about the child and parents of the matter.

Upon issuing the orders an order has been included by the judge compelling my husband to do all such reasonable acts to prevent his partner (me) not to attend a certain hobby whilst the child is in the other parents care. This order was never requested by any party, submissions were never received from any party regarding this order and there has never been a complaint regarding my conduct throughout so i am not sure why this was even included yet this will have a huge effect on my life and my children.

My query is with the new coercive control laws introduced into queensland which specifically state it is an offence to prevent a spouse from attending a social event or hobby how can such an order be issued?

 

[Tim W]

Good morning,

We have recently finally finished extremely protracted family court proceedings with final orders issued. I am just querying the legality of one order that was included if it is possible to get opinions on such.

Of note I am the new partner and we have been married for many years with multiple children of our own relationship. During the proceedings I was not able to be in the court room or have personal legal representation and I was advised that the children of our relationship's needs and mine were not allowed to be mentioned as the proceedings were solely about the child and parents of the matter.

Upon issuing the orders an order has been included by the judge compelling my husband to do all such reasonable acts to prevent his partner (me) not to attend a certain hobby whilst the child is in the other parents care. This order was never requested by any party, submissions were never received from any party regarding this order and there has never been a complaint regarding my conduct throughout so i am not sure why this was even included yet this will have a huge effect on my life and my children.

My query is with the new coercive control laws introduced into queensland which specifically state it is an offence to prevent a spouse from attending a social event or hobby how can such an order be issued?

Well firstly, you are not being coercively controlled (in the way that new law means)
by the Family Court.
Further, the state laws of Queensland do not bind the Family Court,
because Family Law is in the Commonwealth jurisdiction.

Now, to the details - what hobby?
Whose hobby? Yours, or the child(ren)'s?

Let's put it in plain language.
Going only by what you have said here,
missing facts missing, and with all the unstated ifs, buts, maybes, unlesses, exceptions,
and (in the case of Family Law, the biased claims and lies by omission) not allowed for...
It looks like the court has ordered you
to stay away from netball/ soccer/ footy/ nippers/ dance class/ whatever,
at those times when it's (so to say) "Mum's weekend".

I can't speculate on why the court made the order
if there was no application by any party.
Except to say that it is unusual for any court to make an order out of pure thin air
(Perhaps @CSFLW has some insights on that aspect)

 

[Bananatree]

Well firstly, you are not being coercively controlled (in the way that new law means)
by the Family Court.
Further, the state laws of Queensland do not bind the Family Court,
because Family Law is in the Commonwealth jurisdiction.

Now, to the details - what hobby?
Whose hobby? Yours, or the child(ren)'s?

Let's put it in plain language.
Going only by what you have said here,
missing facts missing, and with all the unstated ifs, buts, maybes, unlesses, exceptions,
and (in the case of Family Law, the biased claims and lies by omission) not allowed for...
It looks like the court has ordered you
to stay away from netball/ soccer/ footy/ nippers/ dance class/ whatever,
at those times when it's (so to say) "Mum's weekend".

I can't speculate on why the court made the order
if there was no application by any party.
Except to say that it is unusual for any court to make an order out of pure thin air
(Perhaps @CSFLW has some insights on that aspect)

Hello,
Thankyou for your reply.
I am not stating the court is coercively controlling, i am stating that the court is effectively ordering my husband to exercise coercive control which is an offense in queensland. The orders and the law directly contradict each other. So it is basically on me to comply (which yes i will be doing)
The hobby is one the children (all) and I have been doing for a long time. And under the new orders this prevents even dropping my own children off during the events as it states must not attend in any capacity.
I am not arguing re the context of the matter, I am fully of the belief this situation has only come about through the judge not understanding the circumstances, mainly due to it being an unusual hobby and the requirement for the proceedings to only include the needs of the child involved.
I am just seeking opinions as to how an order can effectively be made against my children and I without us being able to put forward any information about our situation. Throughout the proceedings we were advised by the legal team we could only include the childs needs and not mention the other children or me as we are not parties to the proceedings and therefore of no relevance to the court. And upon this order being randomly made the judge did not hear further submissions and so no opportunity was afforded to anyone to provide background. No mention of me was made prior to the orders being made.
Whether right or wrong i now effectively have an order against me for which i have been unable to have any input and have no right of appeal or recourse for.

 

[Tim W]

Know this - Your husband is not being coercively controlled (in the way you mean) either.
Those new laws are about domestic violence.
Your husband is the subject of a court order, not a victim of domestic violence.

It's not an instance of coercive control when, firstly, it isn't going to happen (as you've said, you're going to stay away), and second, it isn't possible at law.
It's not an offence in one place (even in Queensland) to do something in accordance with a Court Order.

If the order is genuinely groundless, then your husband (not you)
should ask his existing lawyers about an application to have it varied, or revoked.

Not saying this is necessarily you, but,
the few times I have ever heard of such an order,
it's been because bio-Mum has a problem (sometimes well founded)
with bonus-Mum "turning up and causing trouble".

 

[Bananatree]

Know this - Your husband is not being coercively controlled (in the way you mean) either.
Those new laws are about domestic violence.
Your husband is the subject of a court order, not a victim of domestic violence.

It's not an instance of coercive control when, firstly, it isn't going to happen (as you've said, you're going to stay away), and second, it isn't possible at law.
It's not an offence in one place (even in Queensland) to do something in accordance with a Court Order.

If the order is genuinely groundless, then your husband (not you)
should ask his existing lawyers about an application to have it varied, or revoked.

Not saying this is necessarily you, but,
the few times I have ever heard of such an order,
it's been because bio-Mum has a problem (sometimes well founded)
with bonus-Mum "turning up and causing trouble".

Thankyou.

I do understand what you are saying. I guess i just have a huge issue with a court being able to make an order with such significant effect on my life and that of my children without allowing our needs or circumstances to be even brought before them. It would be nice if in these circumstances there was an avenue to be heard but as far as i can tell there is not. And even if an appeal was to be made by my husband it would not get up without being able to include relevant extra information pertaining to myself and the other children which is not permitted under the family court structure.

Thankyou,

 

[Tim W]

And even if an appeal was to be made by my husband it would not get up without being able to include relevant extra information pertaining to myself and the other children which is not permitted under the family court structure.

That's a question for him to ask to ask his lawyer.
I'm not an expert in the field, but I'm very curious about
testing the validity of making an order against one person,
requiring them to restrain the actions of a third party.
And if you he (not you) has something to say about adverse effects on his other kids,
then he should ask his existing lawyer about that, too.

I'm a bit stuck, because on the one hand, I'm not going to second guess another lawyer
(one who has access to facts and circumstances and back story that I do not).
On the other hand, I am having difficulty imagining what kind of hobby it is
that is so unusual that this order is necessary.
Which in turn has me wondering what it is about you
that even put this supposedly unsought order into their Honour's mind.

 

[Bananatree]

Hello

That's a question for him to ask to ask his lawyer.
I'm not an expert in the field, but I'm very curious about
testing the validity of making an order against one person,
requiring them to restrain the actions of a third party.
And if you he (not you) has something to say about adverse effects on his other kids,
then he should ask his existing lawyer about that, too.

I'm a bit stuck, because on the one hand, I'm not going to second guess another lawyer
(one who has access to facts and circumstances and back story that I do not).
On the other hand, I am having difficulty imagining what kind of hobby it is
that is so unusual that this order is necessary.
Which in turn has me wondering what it is about you
that even put this supposedly unsought order into their Honour's mind.

Hello,
Thankyou for your time and responses.
My husband's legal team (he has solicitor and barrister) have been absolutely amazing, have been in this for a very long time and know it inside out. There is a lot to this matter (i have been reading sammy's drink a cup of tea messages for a long time - thankyou)
I don't want to go into too much detail due to not knowing what can be released and what can't unfortunately.
It has been raised that an appeal would likely be successful for this order based on (sorry i am not a solicitor) case law requiring further submissions being required if an order is substantially different from those proposed by either party or the icl which would then reopen the proceedings. However we just don't have the emotional or financial capacity to go down this route for a single order. Other legal options have been offered but again further protracted legal proceedings are not something we are looking for as everyone needs peace.
I guess i just find the whole situation ridiculous and am wondering how such a system can be deemed just. If I had been heard (regardless of whether through my husband's legal team or personally) I could accept it more. Having such an order without being heard is frustrating to say the least.

 

[Tim W]

I don't want to go into too much detail due to not knowing what can be released and what can't unfortunately.

Yeah, and fair enough too.
Also, his existing lawyers could well get pretty cranky
if they thought you were getting second opinions off the internet
(even from other lawyers).

It has been raised that an appeal would likely be successful for this order...

Knowing only what you've said here, I'm inclined to agree. It's just not my place to say so, because you already have lawyers.

However we just don't have the emotional or financial capacity to go down this route for a single order. Other legal options have been offered but again further protracted legal proceedings are not something we are looking for as everyone needs peace.

That's a you thing, not a problem in the system itself.

I guess i just find the whole situation ridiculous and am wondering how such a system can be deemed just.

There is an appeal mechanism.
You may well have a prospect of success.
If you (or he) choose not to exercise it,
then that's on you, not the system.

 

[Bananatree]

Thankyou for your time. To clarify I wasn't really seeking advice but more an avenue to vent and for that this has been helpful so thankyou. Time to move past frustration with the system and focus on the many positives at the end of a very very long road.

 

[sammy01]

Yeah, get a cuppa...
NOT coffee - camomile tea.
Let's play a game called - What if.
What if you go to the hobby. What will she do? Withold the kids? Then don't go. Not worth the grief.
BUT if she will not cause a fuss, then go.
What if she makes an contravention application because you went? Well the judge will likely change the order because it is dumb (good)

What IF you wait. Things will calm down. She will ask for a favour and you can bend over backwards to make the favour happen... Then ask for a favour in return...
Chill.
Applying to have the order revoked? Fark, more court time more money??? Hell no... Even asking about that show that you need more tea and less coffee.

Yep - I don't understand why a judge would make an order with neigher parent sought it.... That said - I am a teacher. I have had a few parent teacher interviews where I have had a conversation with dad... Then mum and mum's new partner. Or mum and then dad and dad's new partner. It isn't pleasant.... I've also been the dad at sporting events watching the ex making out with the new fella.... NOT PLEASANT. If someone should not be at these events it is the step-parent.

Ok - Big gulp of tea. I don't remember your case. I remember your nic-name her. But I can't remember details and from memory you're a frequent flyer, so this has been going on for a while, so armed with that. I'm guessing you've only recently gotten final orders? And you're 'venting' here because of that order? Give yourself two swift upper-cuts - drink some more camomile and realise IF that is the thing you've come here to 'vent' about then you must have done bloody well. Celebrate the wins.